let's see your scout rifle!

[okie john]

Col Cooper would touch on semiautos in his Commentaries, but I think only because people kept asking him about them. He would say a semiauto Scout should be OK if they could meet the weight limit, but I think he in fact didn't like the thought of a semiauto Scout.

This.

Per Jeff Cooper's Commentaries Volume 1, Number 11, 10 DEC 1993:

“I am sometimes asked why we have not given more thought to the concept of a self-loading Scout rifle. The fact is that up ’til now no self-loading action has been produced which is light, simple, and compact enough to meet the weight requirements of the piece. A second point is that semi-automatic fire is of little concern to a man acting alone unless he is in danger of being overwhelmed by a horde of Iron-Age types armed with edged weapons. I would never be opposed to the concept of a self-loading Scout, however, if I thought could get it without drawbacks.”


Okie John

[kaiservontexas]

Wasn't the scout rifle concept developed during the AWB 94? A supposed everyman's rifle? Just curious as it has been a long time, and I was browsing through the thread.

[Alaskapopo]

Wasn't the scout rifle concept developed during the AWB 94? A supposed everyman's rifle? Just curious as it has been a long time, and I was browsing through the thread.

It was developed well before the AWB. Personally I hate them. Forward mounting scopes are harder to use than a good low power variable that is closer to your eye. The insistence on a bolt seems silly as well. I would much rather have a SCAR 17 oh wait I do. This concepts seems fine for a hunting rifle where the game is not going to shoot back. But for anti personal use I think the concept is very flawed.
pat

[Barry in IN]

It was developed as a hunting rifle.
A general purpose hunting rifle. Yes, it could be used for anti-personnel use if it was what one had, like any other rifle. The rapid reloading capability (detachable magazine or stripper clip) was specified in order to make it a little better than the average "deer rifle" for that use, but that not was the intent.

And (again) there was no "insistence on a bolt". The weight specs pretty much ruled out any other action type. If someone could come up with a 6.6 lb, 1 meter long, semiauto that used a cartridge capable of cleanly taking game up to 500 lbs, with either peep sights or fwd scope and a means to be quickly reloaded, he would have gladly looked it over.
But since it was intended as a hunting rifle, a semiauto action was deemed a luxury rather than a necessity and it wasn't pursued with the same fervor as some of the other traits.

[Barry in IN]

Wasn't the scout rifle concept developed during the AWB 94? A supposed everyman's rifle? Just curious as it has been a long time, and I was browsing through the thread.

Col Jeff Cooper started working on the concept in the early 1960s after hunting the USA, Central, and South America using a Remington model 600 carbine in .308. It was apparent to him that this little rifle/cartridge could do almost everything the average hunter needed, with no extra weight and bulk. That rifle had a large aperture peep rear sight.

He explored and refined the idea, adding the forward scope (to keep the point of balance clear for carrying, leave the action unobstructed for loading, etc), slings that would allow the shooter to loop up if time allowed, and other little details. Later prototypes used Sako and Ruger 77 actions.

He would write about it from time to time- more often as he worked it out. I have a Guns and Ammo from maybe 1967 with some mention of the Rem 600 projects in an article of his. He had a story about it in Gun Digest about 1980, and an American Rifleman article roughly 1983. There were other mentions along the way, and it started showing up regularly in his books.

In the late 80s, a Steyr executive was at Gunsite, shot Cooper's pet project, and loved it. Cooper naturally asked him to do all he could to get it factory built. Steyr had the SBS action in the works at the time and didn't want to use an action they were about to replace, so waited until the SBS was ready and in production before making a variation. That took a while. I think it was 1997 when the Steyr Scout came out, and most people heard of it for the first time then.

I had read Cooper's general purpose rifle articles and liked the idea. When the Steyr came out, I hated it. I thought it was a silly looking rifle and that Steyr took what was an idea for a simple rifle and complicated it. Both thoughts were based on appearance.

When I tried one, I liked it. The goofball appearance makes it look like Steyr was trying to do a bunch of things at once, but when I handled it, it was clear that what Steyr did was make the original idea work better. I think it's one of the best "snap shooting" rifles around, and most of that is from the stock design that looks so odd. Anyone can make a rifle that shoots well at long range provided they can spend enough on it, but they made a rifle that handles like a bird gun...and still does well at a fair distance. If that makes it look funny, I don't care.

I think people look at it, see it's different, and try to categorize it. Most seem to see it as a military rifle, which I don't get, but is so common I'm no longer surprised by it.
It does have some confusing or contradicting features if you don't know why they're there. A bolt action with a 2.5x scope, for starters. Some might see the bipod and think it was supposed to be a long range rifle, but that doesn't make sense to them with the light 19" barrel. That bipod is there simply because it could be done without adding more than an ounce or two. They probably just said "why not?". It is no Harris, but it beats nothing, I suppose. I get a lot of good out of it as a way to put the rifle down. I pop the legs out and sit it on the ground rather than lean it against a tree so it can fall over in the dirt/leaves/mud. It has been pretty handy for cleaning, too. It's just a detail. A bonus.

[kaiservontexas]

Thanks for giving me the history on it.

[Alaskapopo]

It was developed as a hunting rifle.
A general purpose hunting rifle. Yes, it could be used for anti-personnel use if it was what one had, like any other rifle. The rapid reloading capability (detachable magazine or stripper clip) was specified in order to make it a little better than the average "deer rifle" for that use, but that not was the intent.

And (again) there was no "insistence on a bolt". The weight specs pretty much ruled out any other action type. If someone could come up with a 6.6 lb, 1 meter long, semiauto that used a cartridge capable of cleanly taking game up to 500 lbs, with either peep sights or fwd scope and a means to be quickly reloaded, he would have gladly looked it over.
But since it was intended as a hunting rifle, a semiauto action was deemed a luxury rather than a necessity and it wasn't pursued with the same fervor as some of the other traits.

I can't do 6.6 but I can get it down to 7.75 pounds with a Larue Predator if you want it light. To each their own but to me the Scout concept is a flop. You get a rifle thats not really that accurate, has a slow rate of fire and the forward mounted optics leave a lot to be desired.
Pat

[Barry in IN]

Not that accurate by what standard? Mine shoots right at an inch and slightly under with it's least favorite hunting grade ammo, which is truthfully the worst I've heard of one doing. Most others I've seen are easy 3/4 MOA rifles. That may not astound anyone used to precision rifles, but it isn't a precision rifle. Personally, I think they shoot great for a hunting rifle loaded with whatever is on the shelf at the local gun shop.
It's sure good enough for a rifle meant for largish game at 300 yards and under.

Slow rate of fire? How fast do you need for a hunting rifle?

The forward scope being good or bad is a matter of opinion. It's like everything else. Some like it and some hate it. Some hate it until they try it and some like it until they use it in the field. I like it- for this purpose. It's faster than anything I've tried except an RDS and I think it gives more precision when needed.

The forward scope is not a requirement to be called a Scout rifle anyway. The Steyr and Savage can mount conventional scopes just fine. The Ruger needs the rear sight removed, which I think is a mistake because it reduces the versatility. My Scout scope is in QD rings and I keep a Leupold 3.5-10X in a set of QD rings to throw on if more mag is needed.

Back to the accuracy thing: An odd but happy quirk of mine is that it shoots a fairly broad range of ammo to more or less the same POI, at least out to 300. I noticed when testing ammo when I first had mine that the groups landed in the same place no matter what I used, so I saved out one round of each of the better loads in each bullet weight and style. I shot a group with 11 different bullets ranging from 110 HP @ 2950 to 180 RN @ 2150 at 100 that measured 1-7/8". Seven of those 11 (still covering 110 to 180) went into 1-1/8". I haven't shot a group of individual loads at farther ranges yet, but judging from their POIs on paper, they look to keep it going fairly close to 300 at least.
For a general purpose hunting rifle, I'd much rather it did that than shoot one or two loads into a quarter inch but need a different zero for different loads.

[Alaskapopo]

Not that accurate by what standard? Mine shoots right at an inch and slightly under with it's least favorite hunting grade ammo, which is truthfully the worst I've heard of one doing. Most others I've seen are easy 3/4 MOA rifles. That may not astound anyone used to precision rifles, but it isn't a precision rifle. Personally, I think they shoot great for a hunting rifle loaded with whatever is on the shelf at the local gun shop.
It's sure good enough for a rifle meant for largish game at 300 yards and under.

Slow rate of fire? How fast do you need for a hunting rifle?

The forward scope being good or bad is a matter of opinion. It's like everything else. Some like it and some hate it. Some hate it until they try it and some like it until they use it in the field. I like it- for this purpose. It's faster than anything I've tried except an RDS and I think it gives more precision when needed.

The forward scope is not a requirement to be called a Scout rifle anyway. The Steyr and Savage can mount conventional scopes just fine. The Ruger needs the rear sight removed, which I think is a mistake because it reduces the versatility. My Scout scope is in QD rings and I keep a Leupold 3.5-10X in a set of QD rings to throw on if more mag is needed.

Back to the accuracy thing: An odd but happy quirk of mine is that it shoots a fairly broad range of ammo to more or less the same POI, at least out to 300. I noticed when testing ammo when I first had mine that the groups landed in the same place no matter what I used, so I saved out one round of each of the better loads in each bullet weight and style. I shot a group with 11 different bullets ranging from 110 HP @ 2950 to 180 RN @ 2150 at 100 that measured 1-7/8". Seven of those 11 (still covering 110 to 180) went into 1-1/8". I haven't shot a group of individual loads at farther ranges yet, but judging from their POIs on paper, they look to keep it going fairly close to 300 at least.
For a general purpose hunting rifle, I'd much rather it did that than shoot one or two loads into a quarter inch but need a different zero for different loads.

So your saying your Scout is MOA. I have also heard of guys with SKS's that shooot under and inch on the errornet. The reality is most of these guns due to the light barrel are around 1.5 to2 moa guns. With your claims it makes we wonder how you are measuring your accuracy. One three shot group or an average of 5 shot groups or a 10 shot group. Anyone can get lucky and have a good 3 shot group. That does not mean the rifle is MOA. I have a friend with a Scout and I know how the shoot. For hunting this rifle is fine as thats not a hard standard. I was thinking of it as a SHTF rifle and for that it is lacking. As for optics give me a good low power variable in the conventional position every time. If the forward mounted set up were faster competative shooters would use it and they don't.
pat

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

The Steyr Scouts are 1 inch rifles. I have owned three over the years and accuracy was never an issue.

These rifles are meant to be general purpose rifles. And I think they are fine as hunting/survival rifles that could used to fight in a pinch. They are very light, well balanced, and much easier to handle than an AR when just being carried around.

My problem with the Steyr is that it isn't as durable as a survival rifle needs to be, in my opinion. The stock needs to lose the bipod and be made of something like Kevlar.