AR vs. Other Assault Rifles. Why the hate?

[rob_s]

What surprises me is when I attend a shooting match and fellow gun nuts give me those responses....

I wouldn't do that...

Unless I beat you.

[SteyrAUG]

Great responses and I tend to agree with most of the same reasons on the pros to the AR system. I suppose the reason I posted this question is because I tend to use a different system for work and play and have found that people tend to give me reactions ranging from mild curiousity to sheer horror (what the hell is THAT abonination?). I can expect this from other LEO's because most of them are not gun nuts and generally only know one system, usually because of prior military experience or because an AR is the first "assault rifle" they have been issued. What surprises me is when I attend a shooting match and fellow gun nuts give me those responses....

I don't think there is anything wrong with the HK33, Steyr AUG, SIG 550/551 or AKM variants. And each has some advantage over the AR rifles. I just think when taken as a whole, the AR is the best "all in one" rifle. And at least in this country a more practical choice in terms of mags, parts and cost.

[tresmonos]

All we want is a gun that is exactly like the AR in every functional way (functional meaning external, not internal, and meaning keep the modularity) with true ambidextrous, mirrored, controls incorporating some increased ergonomics, that is lighter, cheaper, and more readily available.

Speaking from a different industry (but from experience with manufacturing and engineering):
1) The consumer market strips the specialized needs of this forum's audience in terms of the sustainable total market capitalization.
2) The commercial market rewards manufacturers that produce product with minimal engineering resources and quality that is unacceptable to this forum's target audience.
3) Gov. contracts (when compared to the commercial market) generally do not reward efficiency.

Then there is the acceptable quality hurdle (perceived and real) the Stoner platform overcame with years of development. Maybe the 'better alternative' is already out there and 'we' just don't realize it yet. I cringe at the amount of resources and failure analysis it took to develop what is generally considered a 'proven platform.'

[Submariner]

If I hear the phrase "crappy commie rifle" one more time.....

On a US battlefield, the Yankees aren't issued crappy commie rifles with crappy commie magazines.

If you think you will find crappy commie battlefield pick-up, put down the hopium pipe.

[120mm]

On a US battlefield, the Yankees aren't issued crappy commie rifles with crappy commie magazines.

If you think you will find crappy commie battlefield pick-up, put down the hopium pipe.

I'm not sure I fully understand your point, but I am currently issued a Serbian M92 "Krink-alike" and I happen to spend quite a bit of time out in a current battlefield.

I would trade it out for a 10.5 inch barreled M4 in a heartbeat.

BTW, I just do not get the ignorance of some Americans. Former Eastern Bloc troops are some of our best allies. Some of them are even less "commie" than us "Murricans". The Czech Republic comes to mind as a place where "Murricans" could learn a thing or two from. And as far as I can see, the AK hasn't been a "commie" rifle for a couple decades.

[Alaskapopo]

There are a lot of good weapon systems out there, but to be frank the AR is the rifle but which they all are judged. It is the yard stick. It may not be the best in every area but when taken as a whole it is the best. The bullpups that my freind is so fond of are an excellent concept but the excecution always leaves something to be desired.
1. Trigger pulls are terrible to ok at best.
2. Accuracy is usually just acceptable not stellar.
3. reloads are slow and you can time them with a sun dial. Many are not ambidextrious.

There is a reason why contries like the UK that issue bull pups to their grunts and give M4's to their special forces.

I have observed that some leo's chose guns that are not AR's simply for the cool factor. There is nothing wrong with that as long as said officer/rifle performs the role adiquately. The main point being the reason the AR platform is so popular is because it is the best mousetrap going right now. Perhaps in the future that will change.
Pat

[RyanB]

The ergonomics, accuracy, light weight and modularity of the M4 makes it the best of its type. I have experience with the exotic AKs like the Galil and Sig 552 as well as 9X series HKs and the ACR. The M4 is the best.

[alaskacop]

There are a lot of good weapon systems out there, but to be frank the AR is the rifle but which they all are judged. It is the yard stick. It may not be the best in every area but when taken as a whole it is the best. The bullpups that my freind is so fond of are an excellent concept but the excecution always leaves something to be desired.
1. Trigger pulls are terrible to ok at best.
2. Accuracy is usually just acceptable not stellar.
3. reloads are slow and you can time them with a sun dial. Many are not ambidextrious.

There is a reason why contries like the UK that issue bull pups to their grunts and give M4's to their special forces.

I have observed that some leo's chose guns that are not AR's simply for the cool factor. There is nothing wrong with that as long as said officer/rifle performs the role adiquately. The main point being the reason the AR platform is so popular is because it is the best mousetrap going right now. Perhaps in the future that will change.
Pat

By "some" Alaskapopo really means "me" as I have encountered only 5 LEO's that do not use an AR system and only two (including me) that use bullpups on duty. Once I get one of my A3's up and running we will see if I STILL beat him in our qualification runs. We would all love the "cool" factor in our guns but I would never sacrifice reliability or accuracy for plain looks. I choose an AUG system because I really like it. That translates to a higher confidence in its use (as Alaskapopo knows well). Still, he can't help but give me sh%% because I am not eating, sleeping AR's....

Prehaps I should rephrase the question. As we move further away from (and hopefully never again) the AWB, do you see the US firearms industry supporting non-AR style "evil black rifles"? It is very very clear that there is plenty of interest in them (as evident in the A3, Travor and AK systems as well as HK "clones"). Of course, we have to be careful that screw ups (ACR) and lack of QC (MSAR) don't occurr...

[Alaskapopo]

By "some" Alaskapopo really means "me" as I have encountered only 5 LEO's that do not use an AR system and only two (including me) that use bullpups on duty. Once I get on of my A3's up and running we will see if I STILL beat him in our qualification runs...

Prehaps I should rephrase the question. As we move further away from (and hopefully never again) the AWB, do you see the US firearms industry supporting non-AR style "evil black rifles"? It is very very clear that there is plenty of interest in them (as evident in the A3, Travor and AK systems as well as HK "clones"). Of course, we have to be careful that screw ups (ACR) and lack of QC (MSAR) don't occurr...

You did get me on a rifle qualification once or twice and I am proud of that. As the instructor if you beat me it means I am doing a good job. However your success on the rifle qualificaitons was in spite of the bullpup you use not because of it.

I am also all for more choices on the market place. But the simple fact is the AR platform is still the best thing going and that is evidenced by those who chose to use them and their performance wtih that system. Most of the worlds best shooters use AR's that is both in the tactical side and on the competition side of the fence. I am not saying this will be the case forever and perhaps there are better designs out there just around the corner. But at this time the AR is still the king. The AR is easier to shoot well which is why I believe you are using your Noveske for three gun instead of your MSAR or AUG, A three gun match is far more demanding than the rifle qualificaiton I put together.)
Like I said earlier the concept of a bullpup is good its just the execution that has turned up lacking so far. The concept being a compact carbine with a longer barrel in a small over all package. The down side is practical accuracy and slow reloads. For me I would rather carry a bigger gun that I can hit with vs a smaller cooler looking one that is harder to hit with.

As for giving you shit. I am happy that you are happy with your MSAR and AUG's and I think they are an acceptable choice for a patrol rifle. However I don't believe their the best choice. Different strokes for different folks. Kind of how I feel about Eddie's XD in 40sw as his duty pistol. Will it work sure but do I feel its the best choice no. But its his choice not mine.
Pat

[alaskacop]

You did get me on a rifle qualification once or twice and I am proud of that. As the instructor if you beat me it means I am doing a good job. However your success on the rifle qualificaitons was in spite of the bullpup you use not because of it.

I am also all for more choices on the market place. But the simple fact is the AR platform is still the best thing going and that is evidenced by those who chose to use them and their performance wtih that system. Most of the worlds best shooters use AR's that is both in the tactical side and on the competition side of the fence. I am not saying this will be the case forever and perhaps there are better designs out there just around the corner. But at this time the AR is still the king. The AR is easier to shoot well which is why I believe you are using your Noveske for three gun instead of your MSAR or AUG, A three gun match is far more demanding than the rifle qualificaiton I put together.)
Like I said earlier the concept of a bullpup is good its just the execution that has turned up lacking so far. The concept being a compact carbine with a longer barrel in a small over all package. The down side is practical accuracy and slow reloads. For me I would rather carry a bigger gun that I can hit with vs a smaller cooler looking one that is harder to hit with.
Pat

knew that would get him going

This was never a thread about "my gun is better than your gun". I am just posting a question about why the gun culture is so hands off on any design not AR related? Clearly there are times when an AR is by far the best choice but that is not want I and trying to pose to members....