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Thread: All this talk about buffers (confused)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoby View Post
    I recently did alittle experimenting with buffers just to see what all the fuss was about and ATF recently allowed me to pickup my new suppressor. I wanted to see what worked and what didn't, suppressed and unsuppressed. I was going to post this as a separate thread but....I'm certain nobody wants to see yet another buffer thread.

    As you'll see...I went around the world only to come back to where I was standing to start with. Live and learn I suppose.

    For what it's worth.

    Firearm:
    LMT Complete Lower w/BAD Lever & CTR Stock
    BCM Upper, Daniel Defense 14.5” MidLength Barrel & AAC 51T Brakeout Comp
    Suppressor – AAC M4-2000
    Mags – 30rd PMags (#7)
    Ammo – PPU .223 75gr BTHP Match – 5 rounds fired for each configuration

    Note: I normally run a BCM FA BCG, Springco CS Blue Spring and an H Buffer for this firearm and have done so through over 2k of ammo with no issues at all prior to getting the suppressor.

    Configuration #1 - BCM FA BCG / Springco Blue Spring

    Carbine Buffer:
    Unsuppressed – recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

    Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

    H Buffer:
    Unsuppressed – recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

    Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

    H2 Buffer:
    Unsuppressed – recoil was mild/maybe lighter, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions.

    Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag each time. Three different times, out of five rounds, the bolt stripped a round but the bolt FAILED close completely.

    Configuration #2 – LMT Enhanced BCG (std bolt) / Std Carbine Spring

    Carbine Buffer:
    Unsuppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

    Suppressed – recoil was mild, bolt FAILED to lock back on an empty mag. This configuration was tested three times with the same results.

    Configuration #3 – LMT Enhanced BCG (std bolt) / Springco Blue Spring

    Carbine Buffer:
    Unsuppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

    Suppressed – recoil was mild, bolt FAILED to lock back on an empty mag. This configuration was tested twice with the same results.

    As stated before, I'm back to the BCM BCG, H buffer and Springco blue spring shooting suppressed and unsuppressed without any problems. Right where I started from.

    I did take it a little further and bought some PMC Bronze just to see if it would run weaker ammo. It did without any problems.

    Also, does anyone notice anything odd about configuration #2 that theoretically I would not have expected? Any thoughts on this?


    I am not questioning your results, as facts are facts; but this appears to be counter intuitive to my reasoning regarding suppressors and the gas system. Dwell time is increased using the AAC unit, and I would have though that the unsuppressed mode would be the area of cycling difficulty. Perhaps the suppressor is actually holding the case in the chamber longer than the system would like therefore bleeding off cyclic energy... by this I mean difficult extraction slowing the carrier motion. Of course I am just guessing here.
    Last edited by 308sako; 01-25-12 at 21:32. Reason: To add last comment

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 308sako View Post
    I am not questioning your results, as facts are facts; but this appears to be counter intuitive to my reasoning regarding suppressors and the gas system. Dwell time is increased using the AAC unit, and I would have though that the unsuppressed mode would be the area of cycling difficulty.

    This was my line of thinking as well and what made me question what was happening


    Perhaps the suppressor is actually holding the case in the chamber longer than the system would like therefore bleeding off cyclic energy... by this I mean difficult extraction slowing the carrier motion. Of course I am just guessing here.


    Could be, and would it be due to the LMT Enhanced Carrier that is designed to bleed off excess gas? This is getting into an area that I lack some knowledge.
    The other variable in this too is gas port size in the DD barrel. I don't know what the port size is and I'm not so interested in it to breakdown the gun to find out.
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  3. #23
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    The LMT enhanced does two, somewhat counterbalancing things.

    1) Gas bleed ports that reduce cycling force
    2) lengthened cam track that delays extraction ( generally reducing extraction force required )

    My guess is the (assumed) small/ proper gas port in the DD barrel, in combination with the gas bleed ports, reduced available cycle energy much more than the reduction in required extraction force provided by the longer cam track.

    Also, the suppressor extends the time the case is obturated( expanded) against the case walls, generally increasing the required extraction force.
    Black River Tactical
    BRT OPTIMUM HFCL Barrels - Hammer Forged Chrome Lined 11.5", 12.5", 14.5"
    BRT OPTIMUM Barrels - 16" MPR, 14.5" MPC, 12.5" MRC, 11.5" CQB, 9" PDW
    BRT EZTUNE Preset Gas Tubes - CAR and MID
    BRT Covert Comps 7.62, 5.56, 6X, 9mm
    BRT MarkBlue Gas Tubes - BRT EXT, EXC and PDW Lengths
    BRT MicroPin Gas Blocks - .750" & .625"
    BRT MicroTUNE Adjustable Gas Blocks
    BRT CustomTUNE Gas Ports

  4. #24
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    Thanks for the reply Clint. In theory what you say makes sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    Also, the suppressor extends the time the case is obturated( expanded) against the case walls, generally increasing the required extraction force.
    ..........and thereby delaying and lessening the amount of force that the BCG is driven into the RE? Shortening the BCG stroke and causing it to not lock back? I'm I getting that right?

    Anyone know what the gas port size of a DD 14.5" midlength barrel should be?

    Sorry for the slight tangent in your thread OP.
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
    Often times people just tinker for the sake of tinkering without knowing exactly what they are doing. It is the cool thing to do to add a heavier buffer. It's tactical, it's the latest craze, and in a month or so there will be something new to come along that allows shooters to reduce the reliability of their guns.
    Exactly right.


  6. #26
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    I fail to see what's wrong with trying to optimize the performance and or the reliability of a gas operated weapon.

    Esp if that weapon will be used suppressed and unsuppressed.

    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoby View Post
    I fail to see what's wrong with trying to optimize the performance and or the reliability of a gas operated weapon.
    quantify "optimized".

  8. #28
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    An ideal and reliable cyclic rate and what feels best to the shoulder aren't necessarily the same thing.

    What seems like harmless tinkering might make a rifle unreliable, and that might not show itself at first.

    If it's a range gun or for competition, do whatever you please. If it's a work rifle, it's best to stick to what is suggested by the manufacturer for your particular ammo.
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; 01-29-12 at 13:28. Reason: Spelling
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~ Paul Howe

  9. #29
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    Optimized would mean different things to different people. You could describe it as subjective.

    For me it is having a AR that runs reliably with different types of ammo, suppressed or unsuppressed, locks back on an empty mag, minimum muzzle rise/recoil...take your pick.

    Anything I would change on an AR, that I thought would be optimal, would be tested not with just 5rds per mag as I did in my "tinkering", but with at least 500 rds prior to me describing it as a dependable setup.

    Can you honestly say that you have never "tinkered" with the setup on any of your ARs?

    Let's just say all this "tinkering" I do is an endeavor to Become My Own Personnal SME.
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoby View Post
    Optimized would mean different things to different people. You could describe it as subjective.

    For me it is having a AR that runs reliably with different types of ammo, suppressed or unsuppressed, locks back on an empty mag, minimum muzzle rise/recoil...take your pick.

    Anything I would change on an AR, that I thought would be optimal, would be tested not with just 5rds per mag as I did in my "tinkering", but with at least 500 rds prior to me describing it as a dependable setup.

    Can you honestly say that you have never "tinkered" with the setup on any of your ARs?

    Let's just say all this "tinkering" I do is an endeavor to Become My Own Personnal SME.
    I'm looking for performance gains, or corrective action to achieve proper function. Splits, acccuracy, etc.

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