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Thread: Mid-Length gas system "More reliable" than Carbine Length gas system?!?!

  1. #31
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    gotm4: thanks for the replies. [minor hijack follows] What comp do you use? How is it on FH'ing/excess loudness?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    I've heard VLTOR even makes an intermediate gas system, which is between a midlength and rifle gas system length designed around an 18" barrel. I've never seen one.
    i've got some pics of mine at the bottom of this DD Lite writeup:
    http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/ar.uppers.html#dd

  3. #33
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    now you got me nervous, going to clean all my bolts and get the blue stuff and a magnifying glass and check for hairline cracks. maybe I'll be getting some new bolt's . If I knew what i was doing I would be rich and retired by now.
    WHO ME ? ---- A government big enough to
    give you everything you want, is
    strong enough to take everything
    you have.
    -- Thomas Jefferson

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbinero View Post
    gotm4: thanks for the replies. [minor hijack follows] What comp do you use? How is it on FH'ing/excess loudness?
    A Flatland Forge F2 comp.



    Quote Originally Posted by 556 View Post
    Gotm4,

    Love reading your posts, your full of supurb info. so I'm not picking on you. Its just..... well, I guess Im old school. My definition of Double tap would be...Sight alingment, trigger press, verify alignment (ie weapon recoiled back on target) and press again. My bet, that is what you are really doing otherwise you could not call your second shot. Time frame that it takes to do that properly is all relative as you said.

    Just out of curiosity how many of the same type of parts in your 3k STI are similar in your carry 1911. I know my pet carry 1911 sports the same type of barrel and fire control components as my 3k Limited STI. It is set up just a tad different though ie, single stack and sprung a tad heavier.

    I would imagin that things you learn about your fire sticks while racing directly enhance your ability to build a supurb "Social" rifle.
    As Grant said a double tap = one sight picture and two trigger presses. I don't shoot a handgun like this at all. Each shot gets its own sight picture. Two quick ones would be called a controlled pair. With a rifle sometimes depending on distance you can get away with it. I'm not trying for 1/2" groups shooting 3gun, I'm trying to get to A zone hits. A zone = 43.4 square inches.



    Some things do carry over from competition to social rifles. Low magnified scopes were first used in competition before say S&B made the Short Dot at the request of Larry Vickers. Guys used to use low power scopes like the 1-3x and 1-5x shotgun scopes. A long time ago 3gunners used Aimpoints.

    My Springfield Armory 1911A1 shares nothing that my 2011 STI has other than both are single action autos of the 1911 pattern and both have magwells.
    Chief Armorer for Elite Shooting Sports in Manassas VA
    Chief Armorer for Corp Arms (FFL 07-08/SOT 02)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
    A Flatland Forge F2 comp.





    As Grant said a double tap = one sight picture and two trigger presses. I don't shoot a handgun like this at all. Each shot gets its own sight picture. Two quick ones would be called a controlled pair. With a rifle sometimes depending on distance you can get away with it. I'm not trying for 1/2" groups shooting 3gun, I'm trying to get to A zone hits. A zone = 43.4 square inches.



    Some things do carry over from competition to social rifles. Low magnified scopes were first used in competition before say S&B made the Short Dot at the request of Larry Vickers. Guys used to use low power scopes like the 1-3x and 1-5x shotgun scopes. A long time ago 3gunners used Aimpoints.

    My Springfield Armory 1911A1 shares nothing that my 2011 STI has other than both are single action autos of the 1911 pattern and both have magwells.
    In regards to the “Double Tap”. Do/can you “call” your second shot? Also, why do you settle for a A/C rather then 2 A's?

    In regards to your Springfield 1911A1. Does it have a beavertail? Does it have a lowered ejection port? What about a ramped barrel? Is your front sight dovetailed?

    By the way your rifle is very nice. Is it 100% reliable? You mentioned that you would slow the cycle down for a "Social" gun. If it is 100% reliable the only changes I see I would make for a "Social" gun is remove the brake and oversized mag release and maybe adding BUIS. I have that same scope (mine is the SPR reticle) on one of my rifles and would not hesitate to use it defending anything anywhere.

  6. #36
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    This post seems to have drifted off course from the original post, but I have been thinking about UMC03's original statement as to the CAR and midlength systems tonight. More on point, I have been thinking about his definition of "reliable" and the cracked S&W thread with this post in particular:
    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post

    ...Please don't misunderstand my point about service life. I've seen (and even shot) many guns well past 20k rounds. But at a certain point, it becomes acceptable for some percentage of guns to fail. Most LE and military testing only goes to 10k or 20k. While the folks at M4Carbine.net may be exceptions, the typical person is never going to get close to 20k rounds...

    At what point does "reliable" equal "durable"and vice versa.

    I know there is considerable overlap with those words, but I do not think it has to be 100%. The same way accurate does not always equal precise. For instance, is it accurate to say that the CAR (properly set up) is just as reliable as the midlength, but it just has a shorter service life?

    If we take durability out of the equation and assume that every carbine is set up properly with the correct springs, heavy buffers, o-rings, etc... "How is the mid-length gas system 'more reliable' than the carbine length gas system?"

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Thomas View Post
    This post seems to have drifted off course from the original post, but I have been thinking about UMC03's original statement as to the CAR and midlength systems tonight. More on point, I have been thinking about his definition of "reliable" and the cracked S&W thread with this post in particular:



    At what point does "reliable" equal "durable"and vice versa.

    I know there is considerable overlap with those words, but I do not think it has to be 100%. The same way accurate does not always equal precise. For instance, is it accurate to say that the CAR (properly set up) is just as reliable as the midlength, but it just has a shorter service life?

    If we take durability out of the equation and assume that every carbine is set up properly with the correct springs, heavy buffers, o-rings, etc... "How is the mid-length gas system 'more reliable' than the carbine length gas system?"
    I think your spot on Dave. I take that thought one step further and suggest that if the tool is to save your skin then one might think that the life span should not be used more then 2/3rds of its time. Then retired and used for training only and staying intouch with ones trigger.

    I tend to have my go to guns in prime condition. That means that they have been broken in and tested. With the PM's done on a regular basis. I see lots of guys totally use up their tools before acquireing new one. Seems to me that doing so is playing the edge and taking the chance that your weapon may not perform as needed.

    For example my 1911's that I carry have been broken in with 1k to 2K rounds fired each, I don't pack them till then. The one's I shoot matches with and train with have upwards of 30K I have one that has over 50K when I quit counting, its loose as a goose.

    My carry guns get shot once a month to empty the loaded mags and check for function, sight alingments and recharging with fresh ammo, usually on rotated proven mags. Every now & then I'll shoot a IPSC or IDPA match with the carry guns but they last for awhile and never see 10K before they get retired to just shooters or sellers.

    Call me picky.....To bad our Armed forces don't have my same mindset in regards to life saving tools, as I see lots of our warriors with pieces of shit for weapons.

  8. #38
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    You guys can throw all the mumbo jumbo you want. Bottom line is reliablilty. I have talked to a couple of Armorers that have stated there is no more rate of failure for a M4 than a M16.

  9. #39
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    "I have talked to a couple of Armorers that have stated there is no more rate of failure for a M4 than a M16."
    Given the data already published by the U.S.G, it would appear "a couple of Armorers" are wrong, wouldn't it?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Given the data already published by the U.S.G, it would appear "a couple of Armorers" are wrong, wouldn't it?
    I guess so.

    You got a link for that? I am interested in reading that.

    So I am reading that the Car length gas system is hard on extractors and bolt lugs. But I have also have heard of a single bolt in a a semi auto CAR gun can go 20k rounds with no problems. So if you are not shooting that much this is really a moot point.

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