Armor in training?

[Endur]

As we say in the infantry, train as you fight. I have not had the privilege to pay for myself to take civi course yet as I am still active duty but when I can and do I will wear armor even if it is not mandatory. Makes more sense to me to train with it then without as if the time ever comes where you are in that situation that requires it you will be prepared. Doesn't matter whether you are on the beat, stacking on a house at a hostage situation, beating feat in the mountains in afghan, contracting in afghan or a doomsday scenerio.

[Grim Fandango]

No, you understood. Can I ask what it is about what you know about classes that makes you want armor before you take one?

Of course. Having attended a CHL and Appleseed class, and from browsing this forum, it seems likely that participants at a training class, especially an intro-level class, will have varying degrees of experience. I've been shooting for a relatively short amount of time, three or four years. I'm as sure as I can be that I wont do something stupid with a firearm and endanger myself or others, however, I don't know how comfortable I feel trusting a group of people I've never shot with before not to do something unsafe.

The message on this forum is to get training ASAP, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But what I'm looking for at an intro class (how to be a better shooter) may not be the same as what someone who bought their gun last week is looking for at an intro class (how to shoot, period). I've seen people at the public range shooting sideways (gangsta-style), and no joke, I once saw a guy yelling at a target while shooting his shotgun from the hip. If they want to get training, great! But if I'm at the same class as they are, I'd feel a lot better wearing armor.

Rob, I've read a few of your articles on your site, and I remember your comment about realizing you wanted armor after standing in front of a firing line full of unknown people with rifles (or words to that effect). I could very well be one of those sorts of people that you're concerned about accidentally shooting you at drill night. And I wouldn't hold it against you. You have to do what you feel is necessary to maximize your odds of going home at the end of the day.

EDIT: I should probably add that I do not currently own armor, and it is not, at the moment, in the budget for the year.

[rob_s]

The message on this forum is to get training ASAP, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But what I'm looking for at an intro class (how to be a better shooter) may not be the same as what someone who bought their gun last week is looking for at an intro class (how to shoot, period).

This is thread drift, but I think you'd be surprised how much those two things are the same. and how the better you get the more you come to realize this.

As to armor in training, I think it's becoming an if-only for a lot of people. I get emails and PMs from people, on a pretty regular basis, looking to start training but with various "if-only"s. "if only the classes were cheaper", "if only I had more ammo", "if only my wife would let me", "if only I had armor (and all that other ninja-badassery I see in the videos)". That last one is what sparked this thread.

Having been to a class or two I can tell you that if you *need* armor at your first class you're at the wrong class. Can accidents happen? Yes, of course. But look at just how rare they are by how infrequently we hear about them, and then look at the kinds of classes where they do happen. You're more likely to get hit with lightning.

Our drills nights were a different thing entirely. They were the people that WON'T go get training (why would anyone else want to shoot with me?) and walked in off the street. For at least half the guys it was nothing more than a chance to shoot their guns. I could see it in the way they refused to progress and improve. They were there to make a big bang noise, repeatedly. THOSE are the guys I didn't want to stand in front of, but those are also the guys you're never going to see at a sleepaway class.

[rob_s]

back to the original question - if you own plates and a plate carrier, when else besides training would you have a chance to wear them if you're a civvie)?

I don't think it's what you meant, but that can be taken as...

"well, I wasted all this money on armor (and time "researching" it on the internet) so I might as well make things worse and tire myself out and be less comfortable at training and wear the stuff."

[rob_s]

I keep hearing this "train as you fight". I like Pat McNamara's concept of "train for a fight" much better. Pick up a copy of his book and check it out.

[Sry0fcr]

Is there anyone here that has NOT been to a class and felt like they needed armor prior to attending one?

I've done drill nights but the courses I'm interested in (shoothouses for Home Defense/CQB/whateveryouwanttocallit) would likely require having it. It's something that I'm looking into but I'd like to get at least one or 2 handgun courses under my belt since it's a prerequisite anyway before I shell out for a soft armor.

[militarymoron]

I don't think it's what you meant, but that can be taken as...

"well, I wasted all this money on armor (and time "researching" it on the internet) so I might as well make things worse and tire myself out and be less comfortable at training and wear the stuff."

i think that'd be great. however anyone takes it, most people can benefit from the additional exercise.
plus, some instructors also incorporate physical challenges (running etc) to push their students' limits, which makes them less comfortable and more tired. if i wanted comfortable, i'd just sit and shoot from a bench all day. training is about always pushing the limits of your comfort zone, not staying inside it.

[Dennis]

if i wanted comfortable, i'd just sit and shoot from a bench all day. training is about always pushing the limits of your comfort zone, not staying inside it.

I keep hearing this "train as you fight". I like Pat McNamara's concept of "train for a fight" much better. Pick up a copy of his book and check it out.

I am LE but don't think it matters in this case...

Unless you train lots and lots and can pick and choose times to wear or not wear your armor to adjust to the skills being presented I think you should take every advantage to make sure your gear works in the widest variety of situations. Where does your sling fall when walking/running/shooting/offhand? Does it block mags? Does it get caught on the lower portion of one of your mag pouches with plates inserted, without plates? Can you access your mags with armor on restricting movement? What happens when you transition and drop your rifle? Can you guide your rifle past your offside when your armor is on and pushing out your mags? Does your armor make it impossible to reach to the far side of your gear? When moving/kneeling/prone/SBU/contorted? There are thousands of other possibilities depending on your mission and loadout and I am continually amazed at the small and not-so-small things I find need adjusting whenever I train.

Just last year I found that a new cross draw holster that works great with soft armor was completely inaccessible in my armored vest with the radio in. Of course I found this out as I was getting ready to serve a warrant because I was too lazy to try it out beforehand...

So regardless of your occupation, if you actually own armor and ever expect to use it you should wear it in as many situations as possible so you don't get a nasty surprise if you actually use it for real.

Dennis.