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Thread: Why assisted openers and autos are a nogo for personal protection

  1. #1
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    Why assisted openers and autos are a nogo for personal protection

    The first reason that I don’t recommend assisted opening or auto knives for personal protection comes from not edged weapon observation, but rather firearms.

    Those that carry a pistol for personal protection usually put some thought into doing so. They also clean their gun and ensure there is a round in the chamber. That is probably why they experience a second of shock when they draw their pistol, especially under stress, pull the trigger and hear the deafening sound of silence. For some reason the gun did not go back. Expect for those who train otherwise, there are two common reactions. The first is that they just freeze in disbelief and stare at the gun. The second is that they perform an immediate action drill to either clear the malfunction or just chamber a round. If the malfunction cannot be cleared on the first try, almost all people fixate and stare at the gun in disbelief. Their world gets very small, very fast. This does not matter much if you are shooting at cardboard, but if someone is rushing you with a weapon, both reactions will get you killed.

    Back to assisted openers and autos. As far as I know, and I may be wrong, there are no companies making a trainer for their knife. So that means any practice you do must be done with the live blade. I believe that very few people’s common sense would allow them to train at full speed with a live knife, even if it is just working on deploying the blade. And certainly nobody would be able to find a training partner to rush them, much less make contact with them as they are doing so.

    The grip needed to deploy the blade is usually not what you would consider the best fighting grip. Most people who have only fiddled around with an assisted opener or auto knife have had times when the blade failed to deploy for some reason, whether it was contact with a pocket or something else. Before we get into how to solve the problem, first let’s discuss it. How would you know that your blade did not deploy? Well, you would either not hear it click, unlikely due to auditory exclusion. You might feel it as it cuts into the back of your fingers as you acquire your fighting grip and the blade is forced down upon contact with your aggressor. Or lastly, you look at the blade to and see it is not locked open. If you are looking at your knife, you are not looking at the threat. What would your immediate reaction be? Try to fiddle with the knife to try to open the blade again? Do to vasoconstriction that is going to be a dicey option.

    Of course this could be said of any folder. That is why we teach that deploying the knife from the pocket and the blade from the knife as two different distinct steps. Also built into the draw is a failsafe in case you begin to drop the knife as it is deployed from your pocket. Another step of the drill is using the closed knife as an impact weapon if deadly force is no longer justified or you don’t have the time and space to deploy the blade. The whole thing is built around the solid belief that shit happens. What you can’t avoid, you plan for.

    Of course there are those who say “that is why I carry a fixed blade”. I would bet that they are also the ones who talk about how you need to carry a 1911 but have a habit of putting a 38 snubbie or a 380 in their pocket when they venture out.

    The reality is that for lots of people because of laws, company policy, or comfort are armed only with a folding knife as a deadly force option. This makes it even more important that they have confidence in that knife and their skill in deploying and using it. Our common sense approach to tools is selection, carry, deployment, and use. Out of those the stumbling point is deployment. Don’t make things harder on yourself by carrying a knife that relies on a spring to work properly.

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    Pretty insightful... I carry a Ka-Bar TDI. It's small, but big enough to do what I need it to do. I can grab it with either hand and use it , no need to adjust my grip and its instinctual , if you've had zero training you could probably still use it effectively even with a loss of fine motor skills , no need for dynamic movements. Just Punch & Slash.
    You can also use it effectively if you end up going to the ground.

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    I have no confidence in autos as a carry knife due to the inevitability that the spring used to actuate the deployment of the blade will fail. It is operated by springs and all springs will eventually fail.
    "The future's uncertain, and the end is always near." Jim Morrison

    "Fortuitous outcomes reinforce poor training and tactics"

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    Seems like a short-sighted view for autos (knives)...because the same could be said for all modern firearms--because they operate using springs...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Seems like a short-sighted view for autos (knives)...because the same could be said for all modern firearms--because they operate using springs...
    Apples to Oranges....

    Not really "short sighted", but I understand where you are coming from and hope I can clarify my view. Firearm springs do also fail. If I could carry a reliable firearm that did not rely on some sort of spring to function, I would.

    Replacement springs for most quality firearms are readily available from many different sources as spares and they also have a recommended replacement schedule. Most if not all auto-opening knives need to be sent in for spring replacement. I owned two different Benchmade autos that both needed to be sent in multiple times each for spring replacement and the action springs would fail at irregular/unpredictable intervals.
    Last edited by nickdrak; 02-08-12 at 03:42.
    "The future's uncertain, and the end is always near." Jim Morrison

    "Fortuitous outcomes reinforce poor training and tactics"

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    Though not carried for personal protections, and also not an auto or assisted opener, I carry Emersons (I have a couple (the pic's outdated though)), several of which have the "wave feature" which allows the blade to be rapidly opened with one hand if needed. Emerson also make training versions of many of their designs.

    More on the "wave feature" here.
    Last edited by skullworks; 02-04-12 at 07:34.

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    The problem with OTF autos is the blade can get hung up and fail to lock open if enough pocket lint and crud get on the (exposed) rails to prevent the spring from firing the blade hard enough to lock out. This could be an issue that builds up on a daily carry knife. It's not like a firearm where you can just field strip it and blob on a few drops of oil, and oil tends to be a lint magnet. Like nickdrak said as well, you can't really service an auto because parts aren't available and there is no "spring change interval" suggestions from the factory like for firearms. You just run them until they fail to lock and have to send it in for a few weeks for a replacement spring and service.

    Anyone that has gotten an OTF to fail opening completely know what a pain in the ass it is to yank on the blade to get it to lock out. At least with an auto folder, you have a backup thumbstud if the blade isn't GTG.

    Quote Originally Posted by skullworks View Post
    Though not carried for personal protections, and also not an auto or assisted opener, I carry Emersons (I have a couple (the pic's outdated though)), several of which have the "wave feature" which allows the blade to be rapidly opened with one hand if needed. Emerson also make training versions of many of their designs.

    More on the "wave feature" here.
    I run Spyderco Delicas with the licensed Emerson wave feature and I love it. Its simple. It also doubles as a beer bottle opener. The downside is it WILL tear the shit out of your pockets though so if you're using one or using one of their trainer knives for pratice, wear some old pants. Here is a demo on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwTDxsWzgA
    “The practical success of an idea, irrespective of its inherent merit, is dependent on the attitude of the contemporaries." Nikola Tesla

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    Thanks for chiming in guys.

    Unless you have a training blade that matches your EDC you will never know if you can get it out under stress. Your common sense will never let you draw a live knife at combat speed. And even if you could, the common sense of your training partner would never let you do it during force on force.

    For a knife to be a legitimate force option you need to train with it. The training needs to be done for all three phases of interpersonal combat-

    Standing free range movement (what most seem to concentrate on)
    Clinch
    Ground fighting

    We concentrate on deployment after or during physical contact. Over the last 10 years I have conducted a lot of it with people from various backgrounds.

    In reference to the wave. It does not do well during force on force. The exception being the EKI Karambit worn on the reaction side in reverse grip. Otherwise you are gripping the knives with your fingertips and pulling it to the rear. This motion is exaggerated under stress. This often causes dropped knives and half opened blades. In order to open the blade fully you have two choices-

    Flick it open using centrifugal force, which almost ensures you will drop it. The reason is vasoconstriction causing blood loss to your fingertips. Hard to open what you cannot feel. Picture the adrenaline shakes.

    The other option that is difficult again because of vasoconstiriciton would be to changed your grip from a the finger tip pinch grip to a regular grip that would allow you to open the blade using the thumb stud. Unless you have trained this as an immediate action drill it will not happen.

    So if you manage to get the blade waved open, you still need to get until a usable grip. Not the easiest thing to do as written above.- George

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Thanks for chiming in guys.
    In reference to the wave. It does not do well during force on force. The exception being the EKI Karambit worn on the reaction side in reverse grip. Otherwise you are gripping the knives with your fingertips and pulling it to the rear. This motion is exaggerated under stress. This often causes dropped knives and half opened blades. In order to open the blade fully you have two choices-

    Flick it open using centrifugal force, which almost ensures you will drop it. The reason is vasoconstriction causing blood loss to your fingertips. Hard to open what you cannot feel. Picture the adrenaline shakes.

    The other option that is difficult again because of vasoconstiriciton would be to changed your grip from a the finger tip pinch grip to a regular grip that would allow you to open the blade using the thumb stud. Unless you have trained this as an immediate action drill it will not happen.

    So if you manage to get the blade waved open, you still need to get until a usable grip. Not the easiest thing to do as written above.- George
    Good to know and thanks for the insight. I have not heard it broken down in this fashion before.
    “The practical success of an idea, irrespective of its inherent merit, is dependent on the attitude of the contemporaries." Nikola Tesla

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    Glad you found it useful

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