Winchester 147gr RA9T gel tests?

[Nephrology]

Does anybody have any links to good gel test conducted on the 147gr Winchester RA9T?

I know I know they are on the list. I bet they work. Just want some data outside of winchester's supplied info on their website.

[Beat Trash]

I participated in two ballistics workshops hosted by my agency last November. Winchester was one and ATK (Federal and Speer) was the other.

We did the following tests for pistol and rifle ammunition:

Bare Gel
4 Layer Denim
FBI Heavy Cloth
Wall Board
Auto Glass

Pistol used was an issued S&W M&P9.

Bare gel tests were repeated using a M&P9c and a Kahr PM9. This was done to see the effect of going to the shorter barreled guns when compared to the full size bare gel test. (Bottom line, don't sweat it!)

The Winchester Ranger-T 147 (RA9T) was tested. The main round it was compared to besides our current issued round was the Federal HST 147 (P9HST2) loading. We also tested the Speer 124 +P Gold Dot (53618).

The ATK workshop occurred first. At our request, we were given the remaining rounds in each box of ammunition tested.

The following Friday, Winchester came out. Each test conducted was repeated with the Federal loading (P9HST2), to see an "apples vs. apples" kind of test. The sales reps representing both companies were told of this in advance.

During the Wall Board testing, there was a total failure to expand from the Federal loading. The round looked as if it could be reloaded and fired again. I was shocked as this did not occur with the same round when this test was conducted the previous week. I asked that the test be repeated. The round failed to expand again.

Keep in mind that the ammunition was from the same box, from the same lot as used the previous week. I witnessed the factory reps calibrate their respective gel blocks prior to the testing. One of our officers did all the shooting and I did all of the recovery and measuring of the rounds.

The only difference noted was the size of the blocks. ATK used 6"x6"x12" blocks. Winchester used 8"x8"x18" blocks. Not sure if this should make a difference though.

This was shocking and unexpected. It raised a lot of eyebrows, as the main justification being used to change ammunition is a failure to expand of the current duty round during several recent OIS incidents.

No links, but my agencies new issued duty round will be the Winchester RA9T loading.

Dr. Gary Roberts (DocGKR) has tested this round extensively. Do a search and you'll find a wealth of information on the topic.

[Nephrology]

I participated in two ballistics workshops hosted by my agency last November. Winchester was one and ATK (Federal and Speer) was the other.

We did the following tests for pistol and rifle ammunition:

Bare Gel
4 Layer Denim
FBI Heavy Cloth
Wall Board
Auto Glass

Pistol used was an issued S&W M&P9.

Bare gel tests were repeated using a M&P9c and a Kahr PM9. This was done to see the effect of going to the shorter barreled guns when compared to the full size bare gel test. (Bottom line, don't sweat it!)

The Winchester Ranger-T 147 (RA9T) was tested. The main round it was compared to besides our current issued round was the Federal HST 147 (P9HST2) loading. We also tested the Speer 124 +P Gold Dot (53618).

The ATK workshop occurred first. At our request, we were given the remaining rounds in each box of ammunition tested.

The following Friday, Winchester came out. Each test conducted was repeated with the Federal loading (P9HST2), to see an "apples vs. apples" kind of test. The sales reps representing both companies were told of this in advance.

During the Wall Board testing, there was a total failure to expand from the Federal loading. The round looked as if it could be reloaded and fired again. I was shocked as this did not occur with the same round when this test was conducted the previous week. I asked that the test be repeated. The round failed to expand again.

Keep in mind that the ammunition was from the same box, from the same lot as used the previous week. I witnessed the factory reps calibrate their respective gel blocks prior to the testing. One of our officers did all the shooting and I did all of the recovery and measuring of the rounds.

The only difference noted was the size of the blocks. AKT used 6"x6"x12" blocks. Winchester used 8"x8"x18" blocks. Not sure if this should make a difference though.

This was shocking and unexpected. It raised a lot of eyebrows, as the main justification being used to change ammunition is a failure to expand of the current duty round during several recent OIS incidents.

No links, but my agencies new issued duty round will be the Winchester RA9T loading.

Dr. Gary Roberts (DocGKR) has tested this round extensively. Do a search and you'll find a wealth of information on the topic.

Thanks for the information. I have been doing searches, though (both here and offsite) and I can't find anyting of RA9T specifically. I have seen DocGKR's tests of the Federal HST 147gr and the Speer Gold Dot 147gr rounds in addition to many others but nothing on RA9T specifically. at least as far as I could find.

[DocGKR]

http://www.lightfighter.net/forum/ba...le-performance

http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition

[Wayne Dobbs]

Beat Trash,

How did the RA9T, the HST and the Gold Dot perform in the 4 layers of denim and auto glass tests? I feel that those two tests will give you the best idea of a service load's capabilities without having to digest lots of other test data. Could you post results?

Also, what were the calibration results on the blocks?

[Nephrology]

http://www.lightfighter.net/forum/ba...le-performance

http://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition



Many thanks, DocGKR. Also, I sent you a private message over on www.pistol-forum.com if you have not yet seen it. Cheers.

[Beat Trash]

Beat Trash,

How did the RA9T, the HST and the Gold Dot perform in the 4 layers of denim and auto glass tests? I feel that those two tests will give you the best idea of a service load's capabilities without having to digest lots of other test data. Could you post results?

Also, what were the calibration results on the blocks?

Winchester 147 gr JHP Ranger T (RA9T)
Denim: PEN= 15.75", RD= 0.60", WT= 140.7gr
Auto Glass: PEN=13.75", RD=0.50", WT=130.4gr

Federal 147 gr HST (P9HST2)
Denim: PEN=13.75", RD=0.68", WT=149.4gr
Auto Glass: PEN=9.75", RD=0.69", WT=138.3gr

Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot (53618)
Denim: PEN=20.00", RD=0.47, WT=123.6gr
Auto Glass: PEN=10.5", RD=0.53, WT+103.2gr.

I don't have the calibration data for the ATK test.

The Winchester test listed the following:
Gel Block 39 degrees, fired at 573fps, PEN= 3.75".

Even though I was stumped as to the failure to expand of the HST loading through the wallboard during the second workshop, I think that was a fluke.

I'd feel comfortable carrying either the HST or the Ranger T loading in my personal guns.

When choosing a load for an agency, there are additional factors that must come to play.

We ended up going from the Winchester White Box 147 gr JHP to the Winchester Ranger T loading (RA9T) for our 9mm's. Went from the 55 gr Winchester silvertip 223 loading (scary how little penetration this loading gave) to the 62 gr 5.56mm Winchester FBI loading (RA556B). Watching the effect this load had on the gel blocks could be summed up in one word, "D A M N. . . "

Winchester has a new slug that is pre-fragmented. It breaks into three pieces if hitting soft targets such as gel. These pieces penetrated 17" into the gel, coming to rest in a triangle pattern that measured about 6" from each leg of the triangle. If shooting a hard target such as plywood, it acts like a typical foster slug and blow a .75" hole through things.

This may be something we look into next year.

We also tested 38 spc and one 380 loads for BUG's. The 135 gr +P Gold Dot and the 130 gr +P Ranger Bonded were tested in 38 spec. Due to a shortage of blocks, only bare gel tests were conducted. My S&W 642 was the test gun.

The Gold Dot: PEN=11.25", RD=0.58, WT=132.4
Ranger Bonded:PEN=11.75", RD=0.57", WT=129.2

Tested the Gold Dot 380 loading. Winchester didn't bring any of the Ranger T 380 ammunition. Test gun was a S&W 380 Body Guard
Gold Dot 380: PEN=8.25", RD=0.63, WT=89.6

Any thoughts I may have had of using a 380 as a BUG for LE usage died when I saw this test. But that's just me...

[DocH]

Beat Trash,thanks for posting this information from your department's testing. It is an odd thing that the HST failed to expand at all in the wallboard. Could the material have plugged the HP cavity and caused this?
I've never seen an HST that didn't expand well,but it's good to know this.I've been using it,and the RA9T in my 9mm's.
Good info on the .38 loads also.I carry K Frame snubs quite often and have been using the Gold Dot SB load.The performance you listed for the RA38B seems to be about the same,so I may switch to this one since I can get 50 round boxes cheaper than the Gold Dot and it's easier to find.
Thank you again for your contribution here.Very informative,sir

[Beat Trash]

The failure of the HST to expand is beyond my ability to explain. The same ammunition from the same box performed as advertised the week prior in the same test during the ATK workshop.

I personally attribute it to the "shit happens" factor, for lack of a better answer. Nothing is 100%, which is why it's important to train as much as possible.

The officer shooting the 38 loads was firing both the Gold Dot and Win Bonded, one right after the other. He stated he could tell a difference in the felt recoil between the two loads. The Gold Dot having more felt recoil. I haven't had a chance to shoot both loads at the same time to see how much, if any, the difference was.

Reading the results of ammunition tests such as what DocGKR posts is very informative. But if you ever get a chance to attend and participate in a test you should do so. Very educational to say the least.

Stay Safe...

[DocGKR]

"I personally attribute it to the "shit happens" factor, for lack of a better answer. Nothing is 100%, which is why it's important to train as much as possible."

Yup...all JHP's will occasionally fail to expand.

"But if you ever get a chance to attend and participate in a test you should do so. Very educational to say the least."

Directly witnessing well done testing can be a truly eye opening experience--too bad more LE admin don't take the time to do so...