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Thread: Form 1, no engraving?

  1. #21
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    Just posted this up in another thread:

    CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE - Straight from ATF site, 6.2.1 paragraph 2 and 3 discuss required marking for manufacturers and makers.

    It references 27 C.F.R. § 479.102, which covers the markings that are required and the minimum depth/height for them.

    Serial number is already there if you are using a Form 1 on a lower so the maker must then add their name (or trust name) and their city, state because they are 'making' the NFA firearm.

    As cheap as engraving can be I don't know why anyone would want to risk not doing it.

  2. #22
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    There is really no debate that the law requires the engraving, just poor internet advice. Here is the law:

    Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

    (a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
    (1) By engraving, casting, stamping...

    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...cfr479.102.htm

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmac View Post
    You can read the NFA in its entirety, or a synopsis and a clarification via the NFA Handbook. There really isnt a question that the
    maker of the SBR needs to to engrave. And just because your Form 1 was approved with an empty box 4H doesnt relieve you of the responsibility to do so according to the law.
    Wouldn't that make the form incomplete? Would they approve an incomplete form? Mine is engraved, but I have two LEO buddies that "swear" it doesn't need it and neither of them have. I'll have to ask them the next time I talk to them, if and what they filled out in 4h.

    Hell, I'll engrave a thank you note to the ATF agent. I'm the only one that has to see it. I'm not worried about the resale value of something I'm never going to sell.

  4. #24
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    The law, as referenced by ToddK above, is clear. The rifle has to be engraved with all that stuff.

    Sure, I can see Form 1s approved with nothing in box 4H. I'm not sure box 4H even matters. I can also see local LEOs being unfamiliar with Federal law.
    Last edited by Hmac; 02-21-12 at 22:13.

  5. #25
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    Every examiner I have spoke to said your name and address did not need to appear in box h of a Form 1. Some stated that "it wouldn't hurt", but not one said you have to.

    End of the day it's all our own asses and we aren't each others' lawyers.

  6. #26
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    I discussed this with Dana Pickles last year. The paperwork has to match the person shooting the weapon/device. The name/city/state engraved on the gun has to be the same as the name/city/state on the Form1 and the same as the person shooting it. Where box 4H might come into play is when the engraving doesn't match the name/city/state on the Form1, as in a transferred item where ownership has changed.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmac View Post
    I discussed this with Dana Pickles last year. The paperwork has to match the person shooting the weapon/device. The name/city/state engraved on the gun has to be the same as the name/city/state on the Form1 and the same as the person shooting it. Where box 4H might come into play is when the engraving doesn't match the name/city/state on the Form1, as in a transferred item where ownership has changed.
    By your last sentence, one would then be using a Form 4 no?

  8. #28
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    Unless you purchase a factory SBR, you must engrave it with your name, city, state, regardless of what goes in that box.

    This needs to be laid to rest...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by infidelprodigy View Post
    By your last sentence, one would then be using a Form 4 no?
    Good point. I didn't think to bring that up in the discussion. Maybe I'm overinterpreting the concept of engraving not matching the name/city/state on the Form 1. At any rate, Mr. Pickles didn't seem to be overly concerned about the contents of box 4H in the forms that he examines, but he did express the opinion that engraving name/city/state of the maker was necessary. Not really his jurisdiction, I suppose...might be more useful to get the opinion of a BATFE agent who would actually be the one to interpret the law in the field. I've never heard of anyone getting dinged on such an engraving transgression, but from a practical standpoint I don't envision teams of roving BATFE agents on NFA compliance patrol.

    Last edited by Hmac; 02-22-12 at 13:12.

  10. #30
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    I understand why people get confused on this issue. In February 2006, Kenneth Houchens, Chief of the NFA Branch issued a letter stating that no further engraving needed to be added when modifying an existing firearm and adopting the original manufacturer's data on your Form1. Seven days later he claims that this information is correct, but that you "can" place additional information on the weapon at your option.

    Houchens goes so far as to state that they were "remiss" (i.e. wrong) in informing a maker that they were "required" to add their Name, City and State.

    Three weeks later, Sterling Nixon, Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch (not the NFA branch, as that was Houchens at the time), uses the exact terminology, i.e. "required", in insisting that the maker of an NFA firearm from an existing firearm must engrave their Name, City and State on the firearm.

    The point is, the BATFE is often extremely unclear, or vague, or contradictory with their opinion on what is required. Since I would not be willing to bet that an issue involving my firearms would be determined by Houchens and not Nixon on any particular day, I would fall into the CYA school of defensive engraving.

    I have included the contradictory Houchens letters for informational purposes.

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