Quote Originally Posted by docsherm View Post
I don't shoot 55 gr for anything other then training at 50 meters or closer. I have had bad experiences with 55 gr in the real world. I have taken shots, with hits, at 500 m with 62 gr ammo. I would not take a shot with a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel beyond that either.

One of the points that you are missing is that we are talking about is all types of situations, not just long range. Vehicle operations can be difficult with a 14.5 with a can on it. It is much better with a 12.5 and can. Driving around in a HiLux with a M4 is a Pain. Try even getting into a hilux with an 18 ich SPR with a can on it......

Nothing is perfect, but we are discussing the BEST solution. And i can tell you that less then 10% of the shots i took in combat were over 50 meters. And I have a "few" months doing this for real.
I invaded Iraq in 2003: I setup most of the maritime ops in the south for the invasion. Worked with our SPECOPS teams and allied in Southcom, Eucom, Centcom, and Pacom from many nations. I have six years working in and around hostile environments and twice that many years doing JTF maritime stuff. None of that makes me an expert at small arms platforms but I was in fact a small arms threat expert. I was trained in NAB by what was at the time Blackwater contractors and some other fleet training groups. My first armorer's course was in 2008, and was taught by Izzy of Bushmaster. He was taught by Stoner and Sullivan: I spent time with Sullivan and other talented folks, on a number of occasions. I have worked on several projects involving prototype testing, loadouts, and theorized a superior .24/.25 AR cartridge in 2008 when everyone laughed at anything not .30 or .22

I agree with you on vehicle use: I would use a 10" for vehicles myself or a pistol. I figured OP might open his mind to the reality that a 12.5" is not ideal as a one carbine solution for the reasons I explained. It's certainly a good utility carbine that can do the majority of practical stuff as you mention. Don't get me wrong I am not trolling: I believe we are better served to have multiple platforms that are better suited for the tasks. A pistol secondary for vehicles and a 14.5+" carbine. I understand the suppressor size constraints: not sure how practical a suppressor is if you are returning fire from inside a vehicle? Signature reduction at that point with a 12.5" is going to be deafening none the less. So maybe a suppressed subgun or pistol? I used MP5N/SDs in small metal shipboard spaces they excel at that environment. I have an SPR that is lethal inside 1800 meters and considering "we" are trained to use the "extent" of our platform... I live around small mountains with plenty of downward vantages that exceed 2000 meters in Maine. It would be a shame to have a 12.5" and think it was good enough: I often cannot identify objects without magnification here: meaning 12.5" would be obsolete. I could not drop a whitetail with a 12.5" across one of the fields ethically but my SPR would do it at 18" with my federal trophy cartridges. So many stereotypes being brought up here. Everyone has opinions, but can your opinions walk the walk?