Last edited by andygold; 04-08-20 at 19:01.
Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.
Eliminating Chinese goods from your life is a tough task. I do it where I can, and no I don't wear Chinese footwear, I wear US made Danner(Berry compliant) or European brands like AKU, Lowa, Meindl etc. How often do you seek quality goods made in deomocratic allied nations, or are you like most, and solely driven by having quantities of cheap crap vs limited amounts of quality products?
Why shouldn't they cost what they do? Capitalism is about finding the happy medium between maximum profit and a loss in sales. Aimpoint invented the red dot, perfected it and has been the longest and most widely deployed red dot sight in the world. The rest are simply knock offs trying to imitate them. If Aimpoint wasn't offering quality products their prices would be much lower, but they aren't. Do you expect us to believe that Holosun and Vortex are more advanced AND willing to cut their own margins for the benefit of the consumer? The Chinese brands sell for less because they know they're offering an inferior product. For most all they see is cheaper and they're sold. The lower price isn't to persuade the purveyor cheap crap to buy Holosun or Vortex. The lower price is there to try and persuade the Aimpoint types and departments(yes LE departments) that they can get the same product(or close to) for a lot less money. The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less. The silly features like "shake awake" are nothing but window dressing disguised as "innovation". More an answer to a question no one asked(well maybe Eotech with their pathetic battery life).
If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But don't pretend like you're getting the same quality for less from a Chinese knock off.
Assembled in Oregon means it is likely comprised of foreign parts, see Chinese.
Everyone can afford an Aimpoint or Trijicon. The problem is people(those in Western nations) have a desire to consume, to buy shit and own more shit that can't be fulfilled. It's about priorities. Rather than "building another AR" why not take a hard look at priorities and decide if a quality optic is more important than building another rifle you really don't need. I bet there isn't hardly a forum member on M4C that doesn't have 2 or more AR's and likely only shoots one of them. I also bet there are very few on M4C that have 2 identical rifles out of redundancy. Likely most have several rifles of varying barrel lengths, styles, etc for no other reason than to have MORE.
The word budget can be broken down into two factors. Time, and quantity. If you saved $10 a week for a year you would have $520 in your "budget" for whatever it was you were saving for. If that isn't enough money you have two choices. Save more per week, or save for more weeks. Time or quantity. The price of a quality optic is not outrageous, it simply requires one to be more disciplined and save more or wait longer. In addition to those two factors one should have a hard look at PRIORITIES in their life and decide what is important. Is buying a case of beer every Friday more important than saving for that optic? Do you need to have 200 channels on TV? Is another pistol/optic/rifle the priority?
What this boils down to is most firearms owners, and I would say most people in general, simply want too much shit. They want everything and they want it now and they don't want to pay for it. Coupled with the hobbyist mentality it's a dangerous combination in many areas, guns being one. When I read about people complaining about the price of quality optics, or guns, or training. All I have to do is look at their previous posts(or current) and the truth is plain as day. They simply haven't adjusted their priorities or simply don't want to. Complaining about the price of quality goods is their excuse for not taking responsibility for their irresponsibility.
The only lost business will be to people who are only seeking the cheapest price possible. The design has evolved, I doubt Aimpoint has been sitting on their hands and not refining their technology. Even if they were, does that mean Holosun and Vortex red dots incorporate some amazing new laser or diode technology?! I strongly doubt it. I'm all for paying a fair price for a quality product, but the price is half predicated on the product being quality.
You may not blindly brand buy, but you sound like the type who blindly price buys. Cheap gets your attention. Ethics, quality materials, design, technology, performance history seem to take a distant second place.
Well said sir!
The red dot market is pretty stale. The reality is it doesn't need to evolve. The current offerings work and work well(Aimpoint and Trijicon that is). A longer battery life, or smaller or lighter form factor are about the only directions to go. Silly features like "shake awake" are late night infomercial garbage. Solar would be nice but isn't necessary.
You mention others not having problems with their knock offs. Great, neither are those with the trusted brands. The difference is that the trusted brands have a long standing reputation for being reliable(not invicible). The knock offs have a reputation for "their optics are cheap, and so far have been holding up". The fact that people feel the need to champion their knock offs for "holding up" should tell you that even they(the owner) are surprised the product still works. So who's really the fool?
To be honest, for home defense iron sights and a white light are more than adequate. A red dot is a nice to have, in the case of cheap red dots on an HD gun, "a fool and his money..."
Vortex are made mostly overseas but the company is run in USA. Like Primary Arms: Americans paying taxes.
I prefer made in USA: Eotech, Trijicon, Leuopold, some Vortex, Burris and handful of others.
But what we really need to be aware of is who owns the companies? If it’s owned by an international conglomerate type entity they are not going to put US workers interest to heart.
Many US companies don’t put our workers interests at heart. Sad but true. But they do pay taxes, at least I hope they do..because I know I pay taxes and they should too.
So the argument focus needs to be shifted to who owns the company and do they invest in USA?
I agree US made optics are better. I agree that Vortex and Primary Arms are having fantastic Chinese made optics that can be relied upon for defense for 1/4 to 1/8 the price of a Swedish optic. I have had conversations with the owners of Vortex, Primary, and Larue. They are like me (American Patriots) except talented and successful.. Not nearly as handsome but no ones perfect..
Vortex is working to do more US made optics and yes $500-1000 optic with a lifetime warranty is not that steep by today’s standards or at least pre Corona standards. But buy what you want, what you can afford. Just know a $99 optic may or may not catastrophically fail when you need it most. Be aware of that, and also be aware that iron sights may be needed when your Aimpoint fails also.
And don’t forget that if we allow these mega corps and conglomerates to buy all of our arms manufacturers, we are placing national security at risk. Period.
Last edited by Core781; 04-09-20 at 00:02.
I already mentioned what capitalism is and agree with you on that part, but I also mentioned that it is a double edged sword that will come back and bite you in the ass if you try and charge the customer too much.
Most of the rest of your logic in that statement is flawed beyond measure. Just because Aimpoint makes a quality product, and I never said they didn't, nobody did, it doesn't mean their prices aren't too high, margins excessive, and they can't charge less. Like many products that enter a market after a well known product has dominated it, those companies, as a strategy, have to offer something superior and revolutionary OR offer something competitive, cut their margins and offer price incentive to get there foothold or it doesn't happen. That's just business.
Not getting the same quality for less is also a false statement. So a Colt isn't the same quality (durability and performance wise) as other AR's that cost more? Shake awake is a tweak that helps "add" to battery life - and it isn't that new in the grand scheme of things, just not applied to the red dot until recently.
I never said we were getting the same quality as an Aimpoint, but that it has got to the point where it is for the most point negligible and that the juice was not worth the squeeze anymore.
The design has barely evolved dude - come on. They just released the T2, which is barely an improvement over a T1, which is in itself 13 years old. No one said any of the brands were releasing amazing new technology. No one. Just incremental tweaks and improvements.
"The product doesn't need to evolve" is what killed the US auto manufacturers too. At one time Japanese cars were crap, then S Korean cars were also crap. Look at them now. Burying the US - quality wise. Relying on reputation, laying on your haunches, charging significantly more for absolutely nothing, and relying on blind fan boy support for sales while other manufacturers equal and eventually surpass you gets your business in a world of hurt quick. That is Capitalism.
Most logical people here are for the same thing. Fair price for a quality product. You seem to ignore the fair price part. That is subjective. If it is fair to you then pay the +$700 for a T2 and rock on. I, and many others don't think so. Respect that opinion like we do yours. No one said you were stupid for buying an Aimpoint. If you somehow feel that it is being implied, then that is your own conscience speaking to you, not us.
Your last statement is also flawed logic. So if both products are not really having problems, one has a long standing reputation and the other one doesn't, they differ only in opinion and reputation, performance and durability are in the real world negligible. You mentioned above yourself that you are all for paying a fair price for a quality product. Isn't that what that is then?
I would have no problem buying an Aimpoint nowadays, just not for what they are currently charging. For the most part, it is a rugged aluminum tube, an led, and optical quality glass. They are charging almost what a modern cell phone costs which has a significant processor, RAM memory, multiple lens megapixel cameras - front and back, a Quad HD AMOLED screen, and an OS that gets updated on a regular basis. There is no way it is worth near what they are charging.
Last edited by Adrenaline_6; 04-09-20 at 09:30.
You must have peed in someones post toasties at Aimpoint because I've had excellent warranty service from them. I had a rifle that was BURNED UP IN A FIRE with an Aimpoint on it. The Aimpoint was literally scrap. I sent it to them, not really expecting anything. I got a call asking about what happened to it and I explained the situation honestly. Guy says, "We have quite a few used, LEO units we took on trade right now, be ok if I sent you one as an exchange?" ...Uh, YEA!
Now, I do know they won't service DRMO units etc....I did run into that issue with an Aimpoint I bought at a gunshow and tried to send back for an issue.
The truth can only offend those who live a lie.
I bought two Vortex Crossfire red dots for range guns that my boys use. I had one of the guns leaning up against the wall with the stock on a concrete floor. Rifle slid and landed hard on the concrete floor and knocked the battery knob off the side of the optic in one clean piece. Optic was obviously dead right there. Vortex replaced it in prompt fashion but I hope that my Aimpoints would handle that scenario differently. Again, they're for range toys and bought because they were inexpensive but I'm not sure how robust they are...
It didn't according to an old thread with similar scenario. Not a knock on an Aimpoint, because that's a tough ask and I wouldn't expect it to. This area is where there is allowed rotation and is thin and hollow for the most part.
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