Bundeswehr picks AR as new service rifle

[Scrubber3]

I still have some thermolds when I feel like being a hipster.

Otherwise no. Pmags. Everyday Pmags.

I'm on that boat as well. Metal has its place but a Pmag is my go to.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[MountainRaven]

FYI, Italy was also a big user of the AR style mag in the AR70 at the time as well.

All Italy knows is make pizza, make cannoli, make shotgun (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over a century), make pistol (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over 75 years), and drive fast cars.

So, to say it was limited isn't quite the case. The trend was towards the AR type mag in a lot of places (including the French eventually as well)

The French didn't go all-in on the AR-15 magazine until the adoption of the HK416F - which was just over two years ago.

and Germans could have "overengineered" (as they love doing) an AR type mag to fit the G36.

The Germans did overengineer an AR-type magazine in the early 00s for the SA80, which was also what HK416s and early MR556A1s shipped with. I still have one. It's fantastically well made. It's ridiculously heavy. And I'm afraid to drop it because the characteristically crap AR-15 feedlips are easily dented when the magazine is dropped on it's feedlips, even when empty (probably especially when empty, actually, since there's no ammunition pushing against at least one feedlip to help prevent the feedlip from deforming enough to permanently bend), rendering the magazine useless.

I found it odd they went to an AK type of release when the G3 had a button style release (though ergonomic it was not...) which was proven to work.

The Spanish CETME had a push-button magazine release and only a push button magazine release. The Germans asked H&K to design a paddle/lever magazine release while they were trialing the CETME/proto-G3. The combination of a button and paddle was retained on all other H&K roller-delayed blowback guns until the G41 (except semi-auto-only guns manufactured for civilian consumption - thanks ATF). The UMP has a paddle/lever magazine release. The paddle/lever release on the G3 is sooo much better than using the damned button.

And, honestly, I DGAF about button versus paddle/lever (on a rifle). Going to my carte blanche rifle, I would design the gun with a paddle/lever magazine release, because I think rock-and-lock is broadly superior in a service rifle to a straight-in magazine with push-button magazine release (and, strictly speaking, it's not that difficult to make a magazine release that uses both a button and a lever, whether it's rock-and-lock or a straight-in magazine). Although if it's a carte blanche gun, I don't really need to worry about magazines with so much spring pressure that SMEs recommend downloading magazines by one or two rounds, like there are for the AR-15 and MP5....

[Grand58742]

All Italy knows is make pizza, make cannoli, make shotgun (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over a century), make pistol (that hasn't fundamentally changed in over 75 years), and drive fast cars.

You forgot Sophie Loren and Daniela Bianchi.

The French didn't go all-in on the AR-15 magazine until the adoption of the HK416F - which was just over two years ago.

The Germans did overengineer an AR-type magazine in the early 00s for the SA80, which was also what HK416s and early MR556A1s shipped with. I still have one. It's fantastically well made. It's ridiculously heavy. And I'm afraid to drop it because the characteristically crap AR-15 feedlips are easily dented when the magazine is dropped on it's feedlips, even when empty (probably especially when empty, actually, since there's no ammunition pushing against at least one feedlip to help prevent the feedlip from deforming enough to permanently bend), rendering the magazine useless.

I remembered a European steel AR mag a lot of people liked, but couldn't remember the model specifically. Regardless, the FAMAS was also a victim of cutbacks of the 90s even if the French Navy did buy it. Let's face facts here, a lot of programs would never have gotten off the ground without 9-11 including replacing the green follower in the AR mags.

The Spanish CETME had a push-button magazine release and only a push button magazine release. The Germans asked H&K to design a paddle/lever magazine release while they were trialing the CETME/proto-G3. The combination of a button and paddle was retained on all other H&K roller-delayed blowback guns until the G41 (except semi-auto-only guns manufactured for civilian consumption - thanks ATF). The UMP has a paddle/lever magazine release. The paddle/lever release on the G3 is sooo much better than using the damned button.

Didn't know they were made with both.

[Firefly]

Those SA80 Imperial Defences. I got some years and years and years ago. Not bad.

E-Landers are sorta like them moreso than the HK mags.

[JoshNC]

I think this is kinda my question about the whole G36 adoption thing. At a time when most NATO Members (1997ish) had already either adopted an AR type mag platform or were in the process, Germany did what Germany does and went with a proprietary mag for the G36 system. I know there's an adaptor, but you might have figured H&K would have seen the writing on the wall all the way back then and said "maybe we should look at this design and see if that's something we want from the start."

I mean, they were replacing the entire G3 family as their standard infantry weapons. What better time to implement a magazine the majority of NATO was using or was about to use?

Germans are weird sometimes.

Jim Schatz, may he Rest In Peace, posted on this topic on many occasions on HK Pro. He said the G36 magazine was an exercise in designing a purpose built high reliability mag by HK. Remember that AR mags at the time of the g36 development still had many issues. HK wanted their own design. Given the reliability of contemporary AR mags, we take for granted the issues that could crop up with well used, abused USGI mags and the plastic Thermold and Orlites were not great.

[SteyrAUG]

The paddle/lever release on the G3 is sooo much better than using the damned button.

We don't agree on everything, but soooo much this. I probably use the button on my G3s maybe 10% of the time and that is some kind of special circumstance.

[1168]

.
The Germans did overengineer an AR-type magazine in the early 00s for the SA80, which was also what HK416s and early MR556A1s shipped with. I still have one. It's fantastically well made. It's ridiculously heavy. And I'm afraid to drop it because the characteristically crap AR-15 feedlips are easily dented when the magazine is dropped on it's feedlips, even when empty (probably especially when empty, actually, since there's no ammunition pushing against at least one feedlip to help prevent the feedlip from deforming enough to permanently bend), rendering the magazine useless.

Yeah, those mags were supposed to cure all ills. They sucked. I’ve got a dozen to sell next AWB.

[TehLlama]

Essentially, an individual small arm is seldom going to be the determining factor at any strategic scale, but the logistics train required to support the soldier as a system is what may ultimately determine the outcome of any meaningful battle, and given our increasingly Joint-MNF type operational environment for NATO militaries, it just makes more sense to have something interoperable with that, and if you wind up with the same mostly decent but ultimately imperfect manual of arms, then hooray.

Most countries adopted some happy medium that is slightly skewed to their wants and needs. Our guys tend to hit what they shoot at so we give them accurate rifles even if they can't run 100% in the Izmash dust room. And the Russkies would rather have a rifle that works even if you put a ham sandwich in the rifle despite the fact that sometimes it misses the barn entirely.

The magic rifle never exists, the one that is more accurate yet more reliable than anything else. Sometimes countries do something crazy and get really close (Yes, Switzerland I'm talking about you guys) but it usually results in something terribly cost prohibitive. Keep in mind these are the same people that issued the SIG P210 which might be the most accurate handgun ever produced for any military but you wouldn't want to pay for one.

Essentially there is nothing wrong with the G36, it's an AR-18 system that has been proven and then some. Even when England made them with license plate stampings and a disinterest in quality control that has never quite been rivaled the damn things still worked and they seemed to work in poor conditions while poorly maintained and still provided more than acceptable accuracy.

The ACR was originally supposed to be that Magpul greenspace design that can do everything, and realistically still could be, but in terribly practical terms it's mostly hampered by there being a plethora of slightly cheaper options that can do the same job just as well 98% of the time, and let you then spend money on optics, NVD's, training ammunition, and armor systems, which are going to make a bigger impact.

[SteyrAUG]

Essentially, an individual small arm is seldom going to be the determining factor at any strategic scale, but the logistics train required to support the soldier as a system is what may ultimately determine the outcome of any meaningful battle, and given our increasingly Joint-MNF type operational environment for NATO militaries, it just makes more sense to have something interoperable with that, and if you wind up with the same mostly decent but ultimately imperfect manual of arms, then hooray.




The ACR was originally supposed to be that Magpul greenspace design that can do everything, and realistically still could be, but in terribly practical terms it's mostly hampered by there being a plethora of slightly cheaper options that can do the same job just as well 98% of the time, and let you then spend money on optics, NVD's, training ammunition, and armor systems, which are going to make a bigger impact.

The fact that it got farmed out to Remington / Bushmaster didn't really help things either. Even FN's SCAR came with a few bugs.

[BoringGuy45]

The fact that it got farmed out to Remington / Bushmaster didn't really help things either. Even FN's SCAR came with a few bugs.

I have a feeling that if Magpul had held onto the Masada, it would have been a different story; it would probably have been closer to what everybody had hoped for. I could see some smaller European country adopting it as its service rifle. I love Magpul, but farming the Masada/ACR out to Bushmaster seems like an incomprehensibly moronic decision. I know they had their reasons but...why a Freedom Group company??