Which would you choose given the parameters.....

[henri]

Damn....was enlightened to quite bit of info that I was ignorant of prior to joining this forum. Thank you from a FNG.

[ABNAK]

Im very comfortable with GOOD M193, not steel cased or cheaply XM193. Ive shot MEN M193 for years now, with Lake City also being stocked, and thats it.
Why?
1 Availability
2. Price
3. I know the round out to 500 yards, been shooting it since 1983, which REALISTICALLY is fine for SD/SHTF, ect.
4 Ive seen enough interviews from people like Clint Smith, and others, who have shot others with the round and saw only good after effects. { now come the naysayers "I saw this or that, or..I HEARD..or I saw a skinny take 9 hits and still not go down..blah blah}
AINT A ROUND OUT THERE that is 100% one shot drop, 100% of the time.
5 Im in Tennessee..NOT Somolia, Iraq. Afghanistan, ect. In MY AO good 500 yard + or - hits will suffice.
6 NOBODY Im aware of has body armor, except local LE.
7 Good M193 is NOT a shit round, nowhere near the "best", but Im more than confident itll do for around here should a dust up happen.
Sorry OP...for venturing outside your parameters. Ill never see those rounds much less shoot them enough nor have an adequate supply to ever know enough about them.

Well Mk318 seems to have dried up, as has the FBI load.....I bought those a few years back when the gettin' was good. You can still find M855A1 at rape-me prices on Gunbroker, and of course Mk262 (or IMI Razor) is still available.

[okie]

Im very comfortable with GOOD M193, not steel cased or cheaply XM193. Ive shot MEN M193 for years now, with Lake City also being stocked, and thats it.
Why?
1 Availability
2. Price
3. I know the round out to 500 yards, been shooting it since 1983, which REALISTICALLY is fine for SD/SHTF, ect.
4 Ive seen enough interviews from people like Clint Smith, and others, who have shot others with the round and saw only good after effects. { now come the naysayers "I saw this or that, or..I HEARD..or I saw a skinny take 9 hits and still not go down..blah blah}
AINT A ROUND OUT THERE that is 100% one shot drop, 100% of the time.
5 Im in Tennessee..NOT Somolia, Iraq. Afghanistan, ect. In MY AO good 500 yard + or - hits will suffice.
6 NOBODY Im aware of has body armor, except local LE.
7 Good M193 is NOT a shit round, nowhere near the "best", but Im more than confident itll do for around here should a dust up happen.
Sorry OP...for venturing outside your parameters. Ill never see those rounds much less shoot them enough nor have an adequate supply to ever know enough about them.

Given the obesity rates in this country, anyone who believes in the premise presented in Black Hawk Down should be scrambling to get M855.

[Straight Shooter]

Given the obesity rates in this country, anyone who believes in the premise presented in Black Hawk Down should be scrambling to get M855.

I dont think you realize I was being sarcastic.

[vicious_cb]

Im very comfortable with GOOD M193, not steel cased or cheaply XM193. Ive shot MEN M193 for years now, with Lake City also being stocked, and thats it.
Why?
1 Availability
2. Price
3. I know the round out to 500 yards, been shooting it since 1983, which REALISTICALLY is fine for SD/SHTF, ect.
4 Ive seen enough interviews from people like Clint Smith, and others, who have shot others with the round and saw only good after effects. { now come the naysayers "I saw this or that, or..I HEARD..or I saw a skinny take 9 hits and still not go down..blah blah}
AINT A ROUND OUT THERE that is 100% one shot drop, 100% of the time.
5 Im in Tennessee..NOT Somolia, Iraq. Afghanistan, ect. In MY AO good 500 yard + or - hits will suffice.
6 NOBODY Im aware of has body armor, except local LE.
7 Good M193 is NOT a shit round, nowhere near the "best", but Im more than confident itll do for around here should a dust up happen.
Sorry OP...for venturing outside your parameters. Ill never see those rounds much less shoot them enough nor have an adequate supply to ever know enough about them.

Not picking in you personally just as a general post for those who run M193 Ball as their main defensive load. Have you ever done a basic water jug test to see if it even fragments? In my experience maybe half the "M193/XM193" load out there fails to fragment, like passes through 3 or 4 water jugs before it goes out the side without doing anything. You talk about MEN specifically, NONE of those Euro "M193" loads have fragmented in my tests, MEN, CBC, S&B, RUAG ect just don't like to fragment by design or otherwise. I doubt there are many mfgs out there following the actual mil std spec of jacket thickness ect and are just loading whatever 55gr bullet they have in house. If you think "M193", its not. What is labeled as "M193" from one mfg is completely different from another mfg because there is NO SPEC THEY NEED TO FOLLOW SINCE THEY ARENT SELLING TO THE MILITARY.

[Straight Shooter]

Well Mk318 seems to have dried up, as has the FBI load.....I bought those a few years back when the gettin' was good. You can still find M855A1 at rape-me prices on Gunbroker, and of course Mk262 (or IMI Razor) is still available.

Not picking in you personally just as a general post for those who run M193 Ball as their main defensive load. Have you ever done a basic water jug test to see if it even fragments? In my experience maybe half the "M193/XM193" load out there fails to fragment, like passes through 3 or 4 water jugs before it goes out the side without doing anything. You talk about MEN specifically, NONE of those Euro "M193" loads have fragmented in my tests, MEN, CBC, S&B, RUAG ect just don't like to fragment by design or otherwise. I doubt there are many mfgs out there following the actual mil std spec of jacket thickness ect and are just loading whatever 55gr bullet they have in house. If you think "M193", its not. What is labeled as "M193" from one mfg is completely different from another mfg because there is NO SPEC THEY NEED TO FOLLOW SINCE THEY ARENT SELLING TO THE MILITARY.

I appreciate the questions vicious, and do not consider it to be piling up on me, sir.
Ive shot A LOT of stuff with 193 over the past few decades. Ive shot water jugs, not to "test" per se, just to see them explode. as to water jug tests, as many experts applaud their use, just as many say they dont mean squat in real life in comparison to human tissue. PLUS..I dont personally need to do those tests as there are 1.5 BILLION of them on the internet now. Ihave shot so many things so many times with 193,855 and have a little experience with IMI 69 & 77 loads, which are awesome. The 193 is all I personally need, but if money were no object..Id go strictly with IMI 77 and be done with it.
But, Ive shot cars ,auto glass, old doors, old HOUSES, furniture, appliances,all kinda wood targets, steel of all kinds, just on & on, as well as some living things too. I know what itll do, and Im good with it. Yes, MUCH better exists, but I cant afford it.
Ive got a good little collection of fired rounds from most calibers, especially pistol. Some of the FMJ's look nice, some are bent, or flattened even.
I AM NOT arguing my choice is the best, it aint, but its all I can afford to stock up on and for me, here..I have 100% confidence in it.
Two questions: Is or is not, MEN made for the German military? I thought it was.
And, vicious..if YOU had one load, money be damned, to use from now on, come Hell or high water..what wold it be & why?
Thank you for your info!

[vicious_cb]

I appreciate the questions vicious, and do not consider it to be piling up on me, sir.
Ive shot A LOT of stuff with 193 over the past few decades. Ive shot water jugs, not to "test" per se, just to see them explode. as to water jug tests, as many experts applaud their use, just as many say they dont mean squat in real life in comparison to human tissue. PLUS..I dont personally need to do those tests as there are 1.5 BILLION of them on the internet now.

Water jugs answer the simple question of will it or won't fragment or expand. Considering a stack of water jugs offers the bullet a better medium than the human body in terms of fragmenting, if your bullet won't do anything after passing through 3-4 water jugs its going to do even worse inside a human body.

Here is the million dollar question about all those "tests" on the internet. Are they testing YOUR brand of M193, because YOUR brand of M193 may not be following the jacket thickness and velocity per the mil std M193 specifications. M193 is not M193 is not M193. Like said before, when maybe half the stuff labeled "M193" is doing absolutely nothing when shot at water jugs in excess of 3000 fps at 10 ft you might as well be using Wolf steel jacketed ammo as a defensive load and saving even more money because you will be basically getting the same bullet performance.

And, vicious..if YOU had one load, money be damned, to use from now on, come Hell or high water..what wold it be & why?

I would have a company load the 75gr Gold Dot to 5.56 velocities while keeping the same accuracy standard in the ".223" load. Since that will never happen, I use 75gr Gold Dot for general purpose and 77gr TMK for long range.

[C-grunt]

Let me start by saying I am not being critical at all. On both this site and Barfcom I see a LOT of people advocating for M193-ish loads for their SHTF "stash". I have never understood this. Again, not knocking you but hasn't nearly 60 years of bullet development yielded something better than the original? Sure, I remember when the original Coke recipe was altered to make "New Coke", and it flopped.....back to the original it went. But as far as bullets and terminal performance is concerned certainly what we have available now is better than 1967.

I have seen this line of thinking quite often, so you're certainly not alone. Just wonder "why"? Cheaper? Yep. More accurate? Questionable. Better terminal ballistics? Nope (wouldn't want to be shot with one mind you!).

I should say I dont have a "SHTF stash". I have my defensive ammo and I have my practice ammo. I only keep a few mags loaded with defensive ammo because of A) cost and B) Im not really worried about a big SHTF situation.

I do keep a few mags loaded with the TRU because I do believe it is better than 55g ball. But I dont consider 55 g ball to be bad, terminal ballistics wise. Ive seen a decent amount of dudes shot with generic 55g bal, even cheap steel case, over the last 15 years working the streets. Gangbangers and drug dealers arent buying good defensive ammo when they shoot each other. much of the time, maybe most of the time, they are using Tula, Wolf, or some other steel case ammo. I havent seen a lack of lethality.

I have the same experience with M855. We shot a lot of dudes in Iraq in 2003 with M855. It worked well. My brother in law was Marine infantry in Fallujah and they didnt have issues either. My boys who stayed in and had subsequent deployments as squad leaders and platoon sgts havent had any complaints. Same for my roommate and team leader who both went 18 series.

In my opinion the newer stuff like Mk318, Gold Dot, TSX, etc. are a better option and have distinct advantages. If you want to stock up on that I think it's a great idea. But if I was stuck with ball ammo, I wouldnt lose sleep over it. In fact, If I was going back to Iraq and I had something like a money/points system to upgrade my gear like in a video game, upgrading the ammo from M193/M855 would be pretty low on the list.

[Straight Shooter]

Water jugs answer the simple question of will it or won't fragment or expand. Considering a stack of water jugs offers the bullet a better medium than the human body in terms of fragmenting, if your bullet won't do anything after passing through 3-4 water jugs its going to do even worse inside a human body.

Here is the million dollar question about all those "tests" on the internet. Are they testing YOUR brand of M193, because YOUR brand of M193 may not be following the jacket thickness and velocity per the mil std M193 specifications. M193 is not M193 is not M193. Like said before, when maybe half the stuff labeled "M193" is doing absolutely nothing when shot a water jugs in excess of 3000 fps at 10 ft you might as well be using Wolf steel jacketed ammo as a defensive load and saving even more money because you will be basically getting the same bullet performance.



I would have a company load the 75gr Gold Dot to 5.56 velocities while keeping the same accuracy standard in the ".223" load. Since that will never happen, I use 75gr Gold Dot for general purpose and 77gr TMK for long range.

Thank you vicious. That 5.56 pressure 75gr GD WOULD be tits. I DID find a couple videos of MEN 193 being water jug tested. In both vids it did not fragment at all. So, let me ask, as a student to a teacher..what that means to me? I do not use an AR for home defense, I have close neighbors and my Glocks and a couple 12 gauge shotty's fill that role. They both yawed a lot tho. I see so many thoughts, theories & ideas here and everywhere else on constitutes the perfect HD/SD/SHTF load. As you state, and I too believe, fragmentation is important, but then some think not. But 193 is still lethal even w/o fragmentation. I strive for shot placement & multiple fast hits. Even tho no one around here except LE has body armor..Ive been shooting a lot for the upper chest and head shots lately. Not possible in many scenarios I know. I guess in closing, I just learn to dance with what Ive got & had for decades now. Should circumstances improve, Ill definitely get more effective stuff.

[Disciple]

I would have a company load the 75gr Gold Dot to 5.56 velocities while keeping the same accuracy standard in the ".223" load. Since that will never happen, I use 75gr Gold Dot for general purpose and 77gr TMK for long range.

A 75gr GD 5.56 from Black Hills would be great!