LEO Exodus

[SteyrAUG]

Another benefit of mandatory military service (for the ones born and raised in the ROK anyway).

Few benefits and most outweighed by consequences. Not everyone should be in the military, and the ones who are there shouldn't have to deal with or endure those who have no place in the military.

Lots of otherwise successful people would be complete disasters in the military and an even larger liability in combat.

Closest thing I would ever advocate is a volunteer "citizen militia" if people were so inclined but couldn't make the kind of commitment that military service requires.

I've seen people completely straighten out sketchy lives by joining the military and I've seen people who would have probably been ok completely F up their life in the military. There are very few things in this country that should be "compulsory" and something like military service is absolutely one of them.

[ThirdWatcher]

Yeah, I know but I served alongside some really smart draftees, including a medic that was a Conscientious Objector (try explaining that concept to a KATUSA armorer, who wants to issue him a rifle). In my experience the worst soldiers were the ones that were given the choice of the Army or jail by some misguided judge. Our KATUSA’s and from what I saw of the ROK Army were damn good soldiers.

[SteyrAUG]

Yeah, I know but I served alongside some really smart draftees, including a medic that was a Conscientious Objector (try explaining that concept to a KATUSA armorer, who wants to issue him a rifle). In my experience the worst soldiers were the ones that were given the choice of the Army or jail by some misguided judge. Our KATUSA’s and from what I saw of the ROK Army were damn good soldiers.

Given the numbers of compulsory military service most people would probably make the best of it. But just as nobody should have to serve with "military or jail" flunkies, nobody should have to serve with anyone else who doesn't want to be there by choice. Bad enough trying to make things work right when everyone actually wants to be there.

We aren't Israel, we aren't South Korea and we aren't Switzerland, so we don't have an religious / ethno state with a mostly homogeneous population.

Now if somebody WANTS to join the military, we should have no shortage of programs assisting almost anyone from successfully entering and integrating into military service. I even think there should be a fast track to citizenship for those who want to serve in the US military. And perhaps an alternative to jail is a bad idea, because it equates military service with being a criminal, but I could see it being part of a rehabilitation program for certain people trying to get their life back in order after a few non severe ****ups, sorta like a halfway house alternative.

I think the military can do lots of things for lots of people, but it should never be compulsory. Even if the Russians were ON US soil there are still lots of people we wouldn't want to hand a rifle to and lots of people who shouldn't be told what the plan for the next 5 days is going to be.

Even with a volunteer military we still get Bergdahl's and Hassan's.

[Univibe]

The summer hip hop was born because a bunch of kids got new turntables and invented rap as a unique "party style" DJ format.



The month Koreans demonstrated to other Americans what the second amendment was really for and what it should look like.

Yeah! My favorite Roof Korean is the one with the Daewoo K2 rifle and the big smile.

I've long wanted a K2 but can't find one.

[ThirdWatcher]

... We aren't Israel, we aren't South Korea and we aren't Switzerland, so we don't have an religious / ethno state with a mostly homogeneous population.

Now if somebody WANTS to join the military, we should have no shortage of programs assisting almost anyone from successfully entering and integrating into military service. I even think there should be a fast track to citizenship for those who want to serve in the US military...

You make a good point of our lack of a homogenous population yet one of the things I liked about the Army was the fact that the first thing they in Reception Station (1973) was give us similar haircuts, identical uniforms and equipment, and put us in a barracks together, organized in alphabetical order. Racial and cultural differences were irrelevant. I learned that I had more in common with my fellow soldiers than I would have ever known otherwise.

When one of my daughters was a Paralegal Specialist (JAG) in Iraq, she spent a lot of time processing the paperwork so immigrant soldiers could get their US citizenship. One young soldier didn’t even have a green card but they processed the paperwork anyway. I don’t have a problem with that, I believe military service ought to put you on the fast track for citizenship (and as a LEO I recommended this to more than one young man that was concerned about being deported).

Colonel David Hackworth liked draftees because he felt they kept the Army honest...

[SteyrAUG]

You make a good point of our lack of a homogenous population yet one of the things I liked about the Army was the fact that the first thing they in Reception Station (1973) was give us similar haircuts, identical uniforms and equipment, and put us in a barracks together, organized in alphabetical order. Racial and cultural differences were irrelevant. I learned that I had more in common with my fellow soldiers than I would have ever known otherwise.

When one of my daughters was a Paralegal Specialist (JAG) in Iraq, she spent a lot of time processing the paperwork so immigrant soldiers could get their US citizenship. One young soldier didn’t even have a green card but they processed the paperwork anyway. I don’t have a problem with that, I believe military service ought to put you on the fast track for citizenship (and as a LEO I recommended this to more than one young man that was concerned about being deported).

Colonel David Hackworth liked draftees because he felt they kept the Army honest...

I agree with your first point. But that integration only works when everyone volunteers. If you involuntarily induct anyone, those lines will fracture along racial, religious and ethnic divides. But yes, it's what I like about the military most when done correctly, everyone is "green."

As for Col. Hackworth, he wanted to be there, he doesn't get to decide who else should be forced to be there. How many lives were wasted because we drafted people who were wholly unqualified and unsuited for military service? How many good men who did want to be there, lost their lives because they were forced to depend upon draftees that simply had no business being there? And how many draftees were undermining everyone else because they resented their non voluntary draft into the US military? The last thing it ever did was keep anyone honest.

The draft very likely cost us a completely uncontested victory in Vietnam and we ended up with a tactical hand over. The war was never particularly popular but the draft was probably the single key even that led to domestic opposition to the war at home, which led directly to political side shows that didn't help anyone who had to fight in that craphole.

[ThirdWatcher]

I have no negative experiences with draftees (& my best buddy was a US). By the time I enlisted in ‘73, there were no draftees in our training battalion. There were a lot of fellow soldiers that had deferments in the past but still had to serve their two years but they were RA’s, ER’s, & NG’s. My squad leader had a Masters degree in Psychology and became a college professor back east.

I did serve with a lot of draftees in the ROK and they were great guys. Funny thing, when the SSG rotated back to the states they “voted” me in charge, even though I was the rookie because they didn’t want the job. The attitude was they just wanted to do their two years and then get on with life. Yet when it was time for them to rotate back to the world they made sure their uniforms were squared away. They were still proud of serving. (By this time, the airport protests were pretty much a thing of the past.)

Still, I’m not totally convinced the draft is a good idea just to serve the MIC. Our blood spilled just to further enrich the already wealthy.

I’m not sure we can lay the loss at the feet of the draftees though. Ho Chi Minh attempted to lobby for independence in Paris at the end of The Great War and was ignored. IIRC, we had SF-type troops advising him during WW2, yet afterwards our leaders considered him an enemy because of his ties to Communism and ultimately we took over after the French gave up. IMHO, poor leadership lost the war for us. LBJ (the ultimate micromanager) used to brag that our Military couldn’t bomb an outhouse without his permission. McNamara knew the price of everything and the value of nothing. As an adolescent I grew tired of hearing about “the light at the end of the tunnel” in the Vietnam War. And all for nothing in the end...

[SteyrAUG]

I have no negative experiences with draftees (& my best buddy was a US). By the time I enlisted in ‘73, there were no draftees in our training battalion. There were a lot of fellow soldiers that had deferments in the past but still had to serve their two years but they were RA’s, ER’s, & NG’s. My squad leader had a Masters degree in Psychology and became a college professor back east.

I did serve with a lot of draftees in the ROK and they were great guys. Funny thing, when the SSG rotated back to the states they “voted” me in charge, even though I was the rookie because they didn’t want the job. The attitude was they just wanted to do their two years and then get on with life. Yet when it was time for them to rotate back to the world they made sure their uniforms were squared away. They were still proud of serving. (By this time, the airport protests were pretty much a thing of the past.)

Still, I’m not totally convinced the draft is a good idea just to serve the MIC. Our blood spilled just to further enrich the already wealthy.

I’m not sure we can lay the loss at the feet of the draftees though. Ho Chi Minh attempted to lobby for independence in Paris at the end of The Great War and was ignored. IIRC, we had SF-type troops advising him during WW2, yet afterwards our leaders considered him an enemy because of his ties to Communism and ultimately we took over after the French gave up. IMHO, poor leadership lost the war for us. LBJ (the ultimate micromanager) used to brag that our Military couldn’t bomb an outhouse without his permission. McNamara knew the price of everything and the value of nothing. As an adolescent I grew tired of hearing about “the light at the end of the tunnel” in the Vietnam War. And all for nothing in the end...

So first I suspect you were in an A list unit and not Oliver Stones "flunky crew" so that draftees you encountered probably were very qualified.

As to the sad history of indochina, the French actually released Japanese prisoners from jails in order to reassert control after the war. When we strongly suggested to France that they follow Englands example of colonial reform, Charles DeGaulle actually threatened to allow France to fall within the Soviet sphere in influence in we didn't support Frances efforts to retain their colonies.

And if you think we treated our vets like crap, after Dien Bin Phu, when French troop ships returned with the injured and dying, DeGaulle refused to let any of them disembark because it might create the impression that France had lost the war, this was of course directly after France had lost the war. They revere him as a hero because he stood up to the west, but DeGaulle was as useful as syphilis to France politically. Everyone was as disposable to him as they were to Stalin.

Ho Chi Mihn actually imagined his post WWI government to be a near copy of the US constitution. It was only after we blew him off the first time and then sided with his enemies the second time, that he fully embraced communism as a means of freeing Indochina.

[Univibe]

So first I suspect you were in an A list unit and not Oliver Stones "flunky crew" so that draftees you encountered probably were very qualified.

As to the sad history of indochina, the French actually released Japanese prisoners from jails in order to reassert control after the war. When we strongly suggested to France that they follow Englands example of colonial reform, Charles DeGaulle actually threatened to allow France to fall within the Soviet sphere in influence in we didn't support Frances efforts to retain their colonies.

And if you think we treated our vets like crap, after Dien Bin Phu, when French troop ships returned with the injured and dying, DeGaulle refused to let any of them disembark because it might create the impression that France had lost the war, this was of course directly after France had lost the war. They revere him as a hero because he stood up to the west, but DeGaulle was as useful as syphilis to France politically. Everyone was as disposable to him as they were to Stalin.

Ho Chi Mihn actually imagined his post WWI government to be a near copy of the US constitution. It was only after we blew him off the first time and then sided with his enemies the second time, that he fully embraced communism as a means of freeing Indochina.

Similar for Castro. He mostly wanted Cuba free of the corrupt foreign controlled Batista. Casto was a late convert to Soviet communism.

[gunrunner505]

I’ve said for years this is a concentrated effort by the left to make the job of policing so unsavory to the typical person that would enter that field so they can have a national force of simpleminded Brownshirt thugs who will arrest/beat/crush whoever their told without question. The rights of the little people are so inconvenient, we just need to ignore them.

I’ll see myself out.


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