Dangerous Precedent: Paramedics to no longer wait and stage during active-shooter

[Hmac]

More than a decade.

I agree with arming tactical paramedics. My team grew up around the concepts that Rich Carmona espoused back to 2000 and before. We were early adopters and I'm completely on board. Have been for almost two decades.

Officially-sanctioned armed EMTs outside of the tactical arena? Hard to imagine that that would even begin to fly. I don't see that happening on a meaningful scale at all.

[Fly8791]

I'm a firefighter/emt in central Texas and the idea going around is:

Groups of 3-4 Law Enforcement officers form up strike teams and go hunting for the shooter(s).

As they move through the scene, casualty collection points are set up. Next in officers escort and provide security for Fire and EMS to get to the victims/patients.

Here is the kicker, the casualty collection points are pretty much anywhere there is a bunch of wounded. So this can be IN or around the scene.


Getting shot is honestly not my big concern. The problem I have is our communication issues between Fire/EMS and Law. I predict that a bunch of cops are going show up and they are all going to do the "strike team" thing and we won't have an effective way to get in there and do our plug the holes/tourniquet business.

[Fly8791]

Officially-sanctioned armed EMTs outside of the tactical arena? Hard to imagine that that would even begin to fly. I don't see that happening on a meaningful scale at all.

You are 100% right. NO Fire or EMS department wants any of the Travon Martin/Michael Brown/BLM bullshit to come down on them. People don't hate Fire and EMS like they hate Police, and there isn't a Fire Chief anywhere that is going to throw that away by having one of his guys start pulling triggers.

And of the guys I know 99% of them (the exception being the loudmouth dumbasses) do NOT want to carry firearms or have to draw a bead on a living person. Frankly if we wanted to carry a gun we would be Cops. I know the guys on my crew only want 2 things in a mass shooting: First is for Law enforcement to put the shooter down... Hard. and Second for ANYONE on the medical side to be able and help the wounded.

Getting a tourniquet to someone that needs one is what "my area" is trying to focus on. I can honestly support that. But it seems like people are going to be expecting a lot co-operation from departments that can't even effectively communicate.
The way it is set up now is that I (as the LT for my crew) would have to: Radio my IC/Bat. Chief who then talks to a patched over channel to talk to Law Enforcement incident commander (who ever that is going to be), who talks to his officers, who then reply back to Law IC that talks back to my IC, that talks back to me.... See where I'm going with this?


If something goes down in my area I think it will be one disorganized cluster F. There is very little history of anything like this going on. This isn't a Paramedic being attached to a swat team. This is new ground for everyone. Our way of doing thing has always been we stage until Law Enforcement secures the scene.

[TacMedic556]

You are 100% right. NO Fire or EMS department wants any of the Travon Martin/Michael Brown/BLM bullshit to come down on them. People don't hate Fire and EMS like they hate Police, and there isn't a Fire Chief anywhere that is going to throw that away by having one of his guys start pulling triggers.

And of the guys I know 99% of them (the exception being the loudmouth dumbasses) do NOT want to carry firearms or have to draw a bead on a living person. Frankly if we wanted to carry a gun we would be Cops. I know the guys on my crew only want 2 things in a mass shooting: First is for Law enforcement to put the shooter down... Hard. and Second for ANYONE on the medical side to be able and help the wounded.

Getting a tourniquet to someone that needs one is what "my area" is trying to focus on. I can honestly support that. But it seems like people are going to be expecting a lot co-operation from departments that can't even effectively communicate.
The way it is set up now is that I (as the LT for my crew) would have to: Radio my IC/Bat. Chief who then talks to a patched over channel to talk to Law Enforcement incident commander (who ever that is going to be), who talks to his officers, who then reply back to Law IC that talks back to my IC, that talks back to me.... See where I'm going with this?


If something goes down in my area I think it will be one disorganized cluster F. There is very little history of anything like this going on. This isn't a Paramedic being attached to a swat team. This is new ground for everyone. Our way of doing thing has always been we stage until Law Enforcement secures the scene.

Typically it's idiots or the misinformed that hate cops. I can name 5 Fire Chiefs in 5 different departments that have seasoned firefighter paramedics that are officially trained, sanctioned, deputized, certified, POST whatever you would like to call it on SWAT / SRT / aka tactical teams. It works very well. As soon as a position is available (its rare because guys like to stay on the team. I have been on 10 years straight) - as soon as one is open 5-8 firefighters show up from our Dept. alone to try to get on. Every area is unique, distinct and has differing needs as far as level as service.

[Fly8791]

Typically it's idiots or the misinformed that hate cops. I can name 5 Fire Chiefs in 5 different departments that have seasoned firefighter paramedics that are officially trained, sanctioned, deputized, certified, POST whatever you would like to call it on SWAT / SRT / aka tactical teams. It works very well. As soon as a position is available (its rare because guys like to stay on the team. I have been on 10 years straight) - as soon as on is open 5-8 firefighters show up from our Dept. alone to try to get on. Every area is unique, distinct and has differing needs as far as level as service.

For the record, I wasn't talking about any of our Fire/EMS guys not liking cops. Our area actually has a very good inter-department relationship. I was talking about the public at large loosing faith in Law Enforcement due to a long history of getting shit on in the media. And the "dumbasses" I was speaking of are a handful of hicks that want to have firearms and tactical gear on the Fire units. That is a whole different ball game than attaching someone to a SWAT or Law Enforcement element.

You are right though, every area has different needs. The bright side in all of this is people are talking and looking for effective solutions.

[TacMedic556]

For the record, I wasn't talking about any of our Fire/EMS guys not liking cops. Our area actually has a very good inter-department relationship. I was talking about the public at large loosing faith in Law Enforcement due to a long history of getting shit on in the media. And the "dumbasses" I was speaking of are a handful of hicks that want to have firearms and tactical gear on the Fire units. That is a whole different ball game than attaching someone to a SWAT or Law Enforcement element.

You are right though, every area has different needs. The bright side in all of this is people are talking and looking for effective solutions.

Right on. I didn't think that you or any fire guys were hating cops . That is rarely the case. Yes there is a public perception problem, thanks to the mass media. I hear you about the tacticool guys on departments wanting to go full 5.11 retard on gear for engines and medic units. It is entertaining. Fun to watch them spin out about it. After 17 years in this line of work, my give a shit for that sort of thing has turned into pure entertainment factor.

[chuckman]

Right on. I didn't think that you or any fire guys were hating cops . That is rarely the case. Yes there is a public perception problem, thanks to the mass media. I hear you about the tacticool guys on departments wanting to go full 5.11 retard on gear for engines and medic units. It is entertaining. Fun to watch them spin out about it. After 17 years in this line of work, my give a shit for that sort of thing has turned into pure entertainment factor.

In my area I don't think the hate is perpetuated by the media, but I certainly think that it is a big reason across the country. In my fair city there is a HUGE distrust and disconnect between the economic lower class (happens to be black in my AO) and law enforcement.

[T2C]

Trained, qualified Paramedics should be able to carry a side arm to defend themselves should the need arise. The pistol is there to protect the Paramedics and other medical personnel, nothing else.

Let the SWAT personnel do their job and the Paramedics treat the injured and wounded. If things go south in an imperfect environment, it may become necessary for the Paramedics and other medical personnel to retreat without the person they are treating.

The concern that I have heard voiced in my AO is that a Paramedic or EMT may use their authorized sidearm to do more than protect themselves. The feeling is that medical personnel should enter the area, treat and remove those who cannot do so under their own power and nothing more.

Deployment of tactical personnel to deal with a threat and treating the injured and wounded by medical personnel are two separate issues. My next door neighbor is a professional fireman who is involved in the Tactical Medic program and based on his comments he seems to be more interested in the weapons and tactics side of the job than treating injured and wounded. That attitude is what causes some concern about mixing medical and weapons training. In plain English people believe that SWAT should be hunting and neutralizing the threat while medical personnel treat and evacuate wounded.

The next big one is coming and we need to be on the same page when the next mass casualty incident that dwarfs the 911 attack occurs.

[daniel87]

Trained, qualified Paramedics should be able to carry a side arm to defend themselves should the need arise. The pistol is there to protect the Paramedics and other medical personnel, nothing else.

Let the SWAT personnel do their job and the Paramedics treat the injured and wounded. If things go south in an imperfect environment, it may become necessary for the Paramedics and other medical personnel to retreat without the person they are treating.

The concern that I have heard voiced in my AO is that a Paramedic or EMT may use their authorized sidearm to do more than protect themselves. The feeling is that medical personnel should enter the area, treat and remove those who cannot do so under their own power and nothing more.

Deployment of tactical personnel to deal with a threat and treating the injured and wounded by medical personnel are two separate issues. My next door neighbor is a professional fireman who is involved in the Tactical Medic program and based on his comments he seems to be more interested in the weapons and tactics side of the job than treating injured and wounded. That attitude is what causes some concern about mixing medical and weapons training. In plain English people believe that SWAT should be hunting and neutralizing the threat while medical personnel treat and evacuate wounded.

The next big one is coming and we need to be on the same page when the next mass casualty incident that dwarfs the 911 attack occurs.

Agreed, here is my non leo thought.

Instead of arming the paramedics and firemen how about we have some trained regular police officer guard them.

Instead of a bunch of 1 and 2 men fireteams have a trained group of teams and the rest guard. Have 4 to 5 regular police to guard the emt/firemen and help if relatively safe.

No offense to the average leo but inho many arent prepared for hunt n clear. Lets let the average officer guard
Unless the officer is a combat vet, or an officer in a gang rich location i dont know if they are well prepared for it

If im wrong and training in areas have improved then im sorry and happy im wrong.

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[Hmac]

"Inside the inner perimeter". That's where you want Tactical Paramedics. If the medics have to wait for the cops to bring the wounded out to them then that's a major fail. Anybody remember the images from Waco of the FBI bringing out their dead and wounded on the hoods of cars after the whole thing was over? That episode more than any other in civilian EMS was the stimulus for the Tactical Paramedic concept and has driven it ever since. Medics do their job, cops do theirs. Unless you happen to have the rare circumstance that a cop, or group of cops are also EMT-P's, then there needs to be a distinction between cops and medics. I'm talking about actual Paramedics...guys who can do advanced life support in the field...start IVs, give meds etc. If not paramedics, then we're just talking about cops with a basic first aid kit.

Have non-SWAT cops guarding me? No thanks. I'm confident that I do more firearms self-defense training and am more capable of protecting myself than your average cop is of protecting me.

Untrained personnel shouldn't be doing law enforcement. They're not trained for it, and pose a huge liability risk. OTOH, anybody inside the inner perimeter is at much higher risk than the average guy on the street with a CCW, and those paramedics ought to have at least the same rights of self-defense as any other citizen.


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