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Thread: Is 9mm The Way To Go?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    This is one issue where I'm the prophet in the wilderness. I've been hooted by the M4 members, and threatened with Banning by saying this, but I will say that I'm one of the very few M4 members who have actually seen bullets that have killed people, and have studied anatomy, and physiology, seen the results of urban shootings, and have actually talked with trained people who have seen the results of shootings, namely ER doctors and medical examiners.

    The upshot is this: (1) all the service calibers work the same, and (2) there's no discernable difference between hollow point and solid (i.e. FMJ or SWC) bullets.

    I know this violates the earnest beliefs of shooters, lawmen, soldiers, and the like; but there it is. Bullets kill by penetrating vital organs. Bullets that penetrate vital organs kill people; bullets that do not, don't. This is true of all bullets, from .22 short to 500 S&W magnum. There is no such thing as stopping power, knockdown power, hydrostatic shock, temporary wound cavitation, or any of the other concepts that are repeated as sober truth but bear no origin in the real world.

    An ER doctor or a ME cannot tell the caliber, or the construction of the bullet, from examining the entrance, the wound track, or the exit.

    I think handguns can be divided into three categories:

    Mouseguns -- .22, .25, .32. They are quite deadly but the problem is lack of penetration (not lack of expansion as most people think). The little bullets are light and slow, and they can bounce off the sternum, deflect off a rib, or bounce off the skull, and never get to the vitals. The tiny guns are hard to shoot accurately.

    Hand Cannons -- 10mm, .41 Mag, and anything bigger. They certainly will do the job, but not any better than lesser powered weapons. A .400 hole in a heart is just as deadly whether it comes out of a .40 S&W, a 10mm, or a .41 magnum. If a magnum bullet does not hit a vital organ, it's no deadlier than a "lesser" round. The guns are typically large and have limited ammo capacity, and heavy recoil inhibits rapid accurate fire.

    Service calibers -- .45, .40, 9mm, .357, .38. They all work the same, as far as anybody can tell. They provide at least adequate penetration with good ammo capacity and controllable recoil.



    Among them, the nine really is king because it combines hi capacity with low recoil and gets the job done as well as any of them. All shooters should read the FBI report on this. They found that their trainees shot better with the nine than the others; they also found that their elite units also shot better with the nine. I came to this conclusion independently about the same time they did, and gave up my compact .45 carry gun in favor of a 9mm with double the capacity and much less recoil.

    So I carry a hi-cap 9mm, and I carry 124 grain NATO ball ammo. This ammo is inexpensive, functions perfectly, and has adequate penetration through barriers and with large assailants.
    I'm 100% behind you on this and I agree. I've also had to weather persecution for believing this. Although I was never on the front lines so to speak, I used to be in law enforcement and I heard too many stories from officers and others with experience that shot placement is king and there is no "magic bullet."

    I've always tried to take a middle position that hollowpoints are "fine", but they don't excuse you from regular practice and accuracy proficiency. Too many people erroenously think that if you've got hollowpoints you can drop somebody even with a shot to a non-vital area.
    Last edited by Doc Safari; 01-28-19 at 11:26.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightinQ View Post
    Have you not seen .45 ACP prices dropping of late? About the same as the 124 and 147 9 these days and last I knew, the 9 Shield shoots better using a 147 factory. And then there's only a one round difference between the .45 and the 9 Shields, nothing major extra at all to be worth it really.
    My experience with the shield is limited but from what I've shot it didn't seem to make a difference. Shot fine regardless of ammo.


    So....I found

    124gr/1000rds/delivered
    Lawman $180
    Blazer $180
    Agiula $190
    Megtech $190
    Fiocchi $200
    PPU $200

    147gr
    AE $190
    Lawman $200


    45acp
    Geco $276
    S&B $$250 + $25 shipping = $275

    I'm not sure how this is "about the same". Between $95 - $75 dollar difference.

    But whatever the case may be I was referring to his complaint about wrist pain and shooting 45

  3. #73
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    There are actual quantifiable differences in terminal performance between calibers. Dismissal of discussions about it as ONLY "fanboyism" or "magic bullets" or that I care what you carry, are all deflections from honest debate.

    I don't care what you carry. I don't care if you don't think a shooting can go on long enough that the amount of damage/bleeding from a non CNS shot makes a difference.

    What I do care about is letting feelings and likes and rationalizations go unchallenged by quantifiable data.

    And lastly if discussion of terminal ballistics bothers you, maybe just scroll on down past the TERMINAL BALLISTICS forum.

  4. #74
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    No there is not. And again no, it is not deflection at all, and I hardly see any honesty at all when the data keeps getting cherry picked to suit one over the other.


    And it's not a discussion when the noise is not putting out any signal and instead relies on the group think.

  5. #75
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    Penetration is measurable.
    Barrier performance is measurable.
    Bullet expansion is measurable.
    Recoil is measurable.
    Capacity is measurable.

    Understanding those doesn't make any "magic", but it does stack as many controllable variables in your corner as possible. Or let you make a legitimately informed decision to carry something less.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    My experience with the shield is limited but from what I've shot it didn't seem to make a difference. Shot fine regardless of ammo.


    So....I found

    124gr/1000rds/delivered
    Lawman $180
    Blazer $180
    Agiula $190
    Megtech $190
    Fiocchi $200
    PPU $200

    147gr
    AE $190
    Lawman $200


    45acp
    Geco $276
    S&B $$250 + $25 shipping = $275

    I'm not sure how this is "about the same". Between $95 - $75 dollar difference.

    But whatever the case may be I was referring to his complaint about wrist pain and shooting 45
    Yup.

    So if one shoots 2k rounds of that caliber a year that's $150-$200 a year difference. Of course if you shoot 6k rds a year your at $450-$600 annual difference.

    The lesson? Buy as much ammo as you can afford and store today!

    I got the 2.0 Shield .45 because it introduced the 2.0 and I liked those features. It only loses one round to the 9mm. I essentially got it despite it being .45 not because of.

    It's easier to shoot than one expects and very accurate. But it does start to wear on me after about 100 rds. Gotta consider longevity of ones joints...
    Last edited by Ron3; 01-28-19 at 15:23.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Safari View Post
    I'm 100% behind you on this and I agree. I've also had to weather persecution for believing this. Although I was never on the front lines so to speak, I used to be in law enforcement and I heard too many stories from officers and others with experience that shot placement is king and there is no "magic bullet."

    I've always tried to take a middle position that hollowpoints are "fine", but they don't excuse you from regular practice and accuracy proficiency. Too many people erroenously think that if you've got hollowpoints you can drop somebody even with a shot to a non-vital area.
    I'd like to see a "ricochet test". Shoot various bullets at a firm (not solid) material at a couple angles and see what happens.

    I've never seen such a study except the one by the US Army that went around. That was rifles and machine guns though.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightinQ View Post
    Risk assessment low? A .380 is better around the home and checking the mail or going to the store for a real quick errand or walking the dogs. It's light, super easy to conceal with minimal effort, and can be carried all day with next to no felt effort. If I need something else, there's a safe full of guns and an M4 type in the closet plus a 320 compact with light in the nightstand. Not at home, I have something else better suited in my car.


    I carry based on the assessment. I don't fall into the misconception narrative that we're all going to be eventually part of the laws of averages and a statistic. And in my honest opinion, we're all adults here. If you think someone is wrong for carrying this operator caliber in this type of gun, well two things here: 1, They're grown enough to make their own uniform decisions based on what they perceive to be in their best interests for them, not you and none of this is about you in what they choose. 2, This is all rehashed day in day out rinse and repeat topics. I can't find not one board where this isn't being talked about till ad nauseam and battles waged over something so petty as a caliber selection in a handgun.


    I mean it's one thing for someone who may not be so sure about their first decisions and wants input, and it's perfectly alright for a beginner to ask these questions because how else will they find out if they don't ask? But to constantly push this subject back and forth until the ends of time...it's not doing anything but causing petty bickering inside the same community that is supposed to be one team, one fight. Who cares if some random likes what you don't is carrying a wheel, a semi in either a striker or a DA/SA, or a 1911 in any caliber that you like or not?? Are we going to be this effected by their choices that has no correlation between the rest of us for all the other joe snuffy's?


    We need to live and let live here. I have friends that carry a .40. I have friends that protect our streets carrying a .40 as a sworn man. I have friends that carry a .45 and only a .45. I have friends that only carry a .38 Special. And I have friends that only carry a 9. None of what they do is this much of a concern to anyone else. They all know what they're doing and are grown enough to let things be.
    I’m most certainly not bickering, I’m discussing the topic. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, no .380 (the biggest of the mouse-guns) both penetrates and expands to an acceptable standard. If it did, then we would be carrying .380s on the street with God-only-knows how many rounds in a full magazine in a full-size framed .380. Why don’t we though? Because of the above.

    9mm is the first to accomplish it and has the highest mag capacity when compared apples to apples (G17 v G22). I’ll get 2 more rounds per reload, I’ll get more rounds to train with per dollar spent, I’ll have a more manageable recoil with faster follow-up shots, and the service life of the pistol is longer.

    I guess the simplest way to say it is: Mouse-gun calibers come to 9mm for performance, big pistol calibers come down for the other stuff I mentioned.

    It just is what it is.

    It is incredibly important to say that I do appreciate anyone that carries a gun for their protection. It’s tremendous

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    I’m most certainly not bickering, I’m discussing the topic. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, no .380 (the biggest of the mouse-guns) both penetrates and expands to an acceptable standard. If it did, then we would be carrying .380s on the street with God-only-knows how many rounds in a full magazine in a full-size framed .380. Why don’t we though? Because of the above.

    9mm is the first to accomplish it and has the highest mag capacity when compared apples to apples (G17 v G22). I’ll get 2 more rounds per reload, I’ll get more rounds to train with per dollar spent, I’ll have a more manageable recoil with faster follow-up shots, and the service life of the pistol is longer.

    I guess the simplest way to say it is: Mouse-gun calibers come to 9mm for performance, big pistol calibers come down for the other stuff I mentioned.

    It just is what it is.

    It is incredibly important to say that I do appreciate anyone that carries a gun for their protection. It’s tremendous
    While 9mm jhp and up performance is desirable weaker calibers and simpler bullets stop human aggression every day, too.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTick View Post
    I’m most certainly not bickering, I’m discussing the topic. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, no .380 (the biggest of the mouse-guns) both penetrates and expands to an acceptable standard. If it did, then we would be carrying .380s on the street with God-only-knows how many rounds in a full magazine in a full-size framed .380. Why don’t we though? Because of the above.

    9mm is the first to accomplish it and has the highest mag capacity when compared apples to apples (G17 v G22). I’ll get 2 more rounds per reload, I’ll get more rounds to train with per dollar spent, I’ll have a more manageable recoil with faster follow-up shots, and the service life of the pistol is longer.

    I guess the simplest way to say it is: Mouse-gun calibers come to 9mm for performance, big pistol calibers come down for the other stuff I mentioned.

    It just is what it is.

    It is incredibly important to say that I do appreciate anyone that carries a gun for their protection. It’s tremendous
    It's not a discussion, it's an ignorant one way lecturing.


    .380's have been stopping threats just fine when only ball is used, and this is a fact that whether or not you will ever agree,still will not change it from being a fact.


    And I don't know if you have ever noticed, but the market is driven upon supply and demand and price accordingly. And for another, a .380 is used for a last resort and let's face it, carrying is for self defense and a last resort where being discreet and comfort is most desirable to those not falling into the camps of those that believe in the laws of averages and that everyone is out to get them at any moment.


    And I don't fall into the capacity mantra either, if you cannot hit what you're aiming at, those two extra rounds won't matter at all. CNC shot placement counts, not how much you carry. Nothing I carry from a .380 to a .45 makes me ever feel outgunned and speaking of a .45, I'm no slower using it than a 9 and my accuracy is better' the clock doesn't lie.


    So no, it isn't just the way it is with that paint brush that you used. You will not concede and neither will I. Rinse and repeat till ad nauseam. This is a topic for beginners, not for trying to battle your own side over day in and day out as it does nothing but creates animosity. Staying divided over petty differences is not the answer and it never will be. Best we agree to disagree and move on, right?

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