Questions about M855A1

[okie]

I don't think there is the same problem with MK318 and patents, yet it isn't readily available or cheap.

Vietnam had plenty of variable terminal performance complaints. I think it even started the twist theory as the first ones over there were 1/14" vs the 1/12" that became the standard issue.

When the whole angle/fleet yaw thing was discovered it proved the first hand accounts of both sides could be correct. It comes down to smaller calibers having less reliable yaw and fragmentation with ball. It's also the reason the experts say barrier blind expanding loads are more reliable than loads that rely on fragmentation, even the heavy OTM's.

I thought it all started in Somalia. So why does M855 get such a bad rap if M193 is no better? And if these complaints were commonplace in Vietnam, why did it take until 1993 for everyone to lose their minds over it? It just seems like a really strange thing, especially considering the scale of the Vietnam war compared to Somalia. If that problem existed at that time, how was it not a big deal?

[vicious_cb]

I thought it all started in Somalia. So why does M855 get such a bad rap if M193 is no better? And if these complaints were commonplace in Vietnam, why did it take until 1993 for everyone to lose their minds over it? It just seems like a really strange thing, especially considering the scale of the Vietnam war compared to Somalia. If that problem existed at that time, how was it not a big deal?

Propaganda. Didnt you hear new M16's were so awesome they were blowing the vietcong's limbs off.

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

[WS6]

1. Why is it so horrifically expensive, given that it costs about the same as M855 to make?

2. Will the price come down eventually? If so, how long will it take?

3. What is the opinion on this forum of the enhanced performance magazine? Is it really more reliable like the Army says, or complete crap like the Marines say? Or is it no better or worse than previous USGI pattern mags?

4. Re the EPMs, is OKAY still making them, or is Center Industries now the only supplier? I can only find Center Industries EPMs for sale, and would obviously prefer OKAY.

5. Despite being fugly as hell, is it correct to say that the Surefeed E2 is basically a civilian version of the EPM? Better than the EPM? Or am I comparing apples and oranges?

-Costs the same as M855 in my experience. 50 cents a round on the open market. This was a few years ago, though. Maybe it's lower now.
-Gen 3 PMAG is the way to go.

[okie]

-Costs the same as M855 in my experience. 50 cents a round on the open market. This was a few years ago, though. Maybe it's lower now.
-Gen 3 PMAG is the way to go.

More like two bucks a round, if you can even find it.

[okie]

Propaganda. Didnt you hear new M16's were so awesome they were blowing the vietcong's limbs off.

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

Interesting, thanks for posting.

[WS6]

More like two bucks a round, if you can even find it.

That sounds like a ripoff. Buy Browntip for that.

[ABNAK]

That sounds like a ripoff. Buy Browntip for that.

Good luck on that one. SSA was the only one I recall who ever sold anything resembling the "brown tip" .mil load. Even then you have to pay attention to which "gen" of it you got or the velocities weren't quite up to par with the military stuff. I will look on Gunbroker and see if mil-spec "brown tip" has or is available (now you've got my curiosity piqued!).

[MountainRaven]

I don't think there is the same problem with MK318 and patents, yet it isn't readily available or cheap.

As per this:

Mk318 is yaw independent because it basically an unbonded trophy bonded bear claw. Follows the same hydraulic expansion mechanism as its hunting counterpart.

I'm pretty sure Federal Premium/ATK still holds patents relevant to the Mk318 projectile.

And there's not much point to cloning Mk318, cuz the guys who would want Mk318 will know what they want. And the people who don't, won't care - just make your own open-tip/soft-point lead-core or solid-copper expanding bullet.

Good luck on that one. SSA was the only one I recall who ever sold anything resembling the "brown tip" .mil load. Even then you have to pay attention to which "gen" of it you got or the velocities weren't quite up to par with the military stuff. I will look on Gunbroker and see if mil-spec "brown tip" has or is available (now you've got my curiosity piqued!).

What's the difference between, "brown tip," and any other 5.56mm NATO cartridge loaded with 70-gr TSXs?

[ABNAK]

What's the difference between, "brown tip," and any other 5.56mm NATO cartridge loaded with 70-gr TSXs?

There isn't. I took the comment as referring to the actual military loading of it. Is anyone still loading 70gr TSX to 5.56 NATO pressures? Haven't looked myself.

[Todd.K]

And there's not much point to cloning Mk318, cuz the guys who would want Mk318 will know what they want. And the people who don't, won't care - just make your own open-tip/soft-point lead-core or solid-copper expanding bullet.

It was just an observation about "surplus" ammo availability not being tied to current military production. As I said before, I'm fine with the commercial barrier blind loads available.

Now brown tip? It's time for an intervention. The idea that anything the military uses must be better needs to stop.