Going into class "cold"

[Treehopr]

I think Larry Vickers once shared a story about a student of his who was about to go down to Rogers Shooting School. Having heard about how difficult the course can be even for experienced shooters, the student asked Larry what he could do to "prepare" for the class.

Larry's response was to practice shooting bulls at 25 yards slow fire. IIRC his reasoning was, if you can hit that 5.5" circle at 25 yards then it won't matter how fast the plates on the Rogers Range pop out- you'll be able to hit it.

That's what the student did and he "walked the dog" on the course.

I'm in favor of preparing for a class, its one thing if the instructor is going to teach me some "new" technique but how would I know that beforehand?

So why would I want to go in to a class to be coached or taught on something I already know but might not be able to execute on demand?

As an example- lets say I have a pistol class next weekend with an instructor, the course will cost $xxx and require 3 days out of my life. So I take the next 2 days to do some dry fire and a few hours at the range. I discover that I've got a minor habit of mashing the trigger. I self correct with determined perfect practice. I show up for class and the instructor sees I can apply the fundamentals and adds tweaks or tricks to help make me a better shooter.

Or...I don't practice and show up for the class "cold." The instructor sees that I'm having a bit of trouble with mashing the trigger and gives me a few pointers to fix it. It works and we move on but the instructor evaluates me as a capable shooter but not one who has the fundamentals down and therefore isn't ready for more "advanced" coaching.

I want to show up for the class as the best shooter I can be at that time. A good instructor should be able to still find room for improvement and offer some coaching to support that.

A good student, should be flexible enough to switch gears if an instructor has a different way of doing things. At the end of the class, if the "new" technique has enough merit- then continue to train it. If not, discard it and go back to whatever you were doing.

[orionz06]

So, what is "preparing to learn"? People prepare for tests, not to learn. Preparing to learn means getting a good nights rest, a good breakfast, and having the correct materials necessary for the class.

What do people do to "prepare" to learn in grade school? They show up with the pens and a note pad, ready to focus on the task at hand.

Ding, that is what I was looking for all week, knew, but could not get the words out.

If shooting a period of time before the class impacts that then you should see a shrink.

I think the point of this thread was lost. I also think I was the person Shawn is talking about. I knew TigerSwan shoots 25 yards bullseye, so I had an instinct to shoot 25 yard bulls before the class. I thought I should change from my regular practice routine to a routine geared to doing well in a TigerSwan class.

I thought it was himself he was talking about..?


Worded very well. No one should attempt to be really good at the content of the class to the point of drilling segments of the class over and over again. Also, no one should think that skipping a range session is going to help them learn more. Showing up without shooting for a while may make a flaw more obvious, but that would need to be on an individual basis. If that flaw were more obvious it would then be more easily diagnosed. But that is a point that everyone knew before this thread started. It might take one person 3 weeks to have their skills degrade while another shooter might show a drop in 1 week. The biggest issue I had was the learning part.

The answer I got so far proves my suspicions. People will not "learn better" if they skip the activity, but instead their performance may diminish to the point of flaws being more obvious. The other part of that is if shooting on 9/1/2011 impacts your ability to comprehend information presented on 9/8/2011 there are other things at play. There is a longer answer I am supposed to receive, but in the many discussions with the OP and other people, some outside of the internet forum world, I am satisfied.

If anyone cares for that answer, doubtful, I will be glad to talk about it outside of the thread.

Did I shoot 8x like others in the class at 25 yards? No. Did I **** up some "simple" shit? Yes. I could have warmed up to the class and not have ****ed up the simple stuff, and I could have done preps to shoot 8x at 25 yards; but that is not something I do every week. I could have hidden that weakness, but instead I demonstrated that flaw to a professional, who's day to day job is teaching that type of stuff. He then told me how to fix that weakness without spending tons of time getting it right on my own. Once again I could have "gamed" that part and have missed out that lesson.

That is where the value is, you had something that was more efficiently fixed by the instructor you were paying to fix things.

For me the lesson learned wasn't to stop practicing or anything like that, it was to go into the class with whatever preparations you do every day/week/month, and come out of it with some added benefit that you didn't have before.

Sounds like sticking to your schedule worked out just fine.

[rickp]

For the sole reason that you have a class coming up, YES.

You'd be assuming incorrectly...

• 16 hours with local instructor (25 year SWAT cop, IALEFI presenter, etc. who I later apprenticed under - 40 hours or so apprenticing).
• 40 hours state mandated class (armed security certification)
• 16 hours Ken Hackathorn Advanced Pistol
• 24 hours Larry Vickers Advanced Combat Pistol
• 16 hours Larry Vickers 1911 Operator
• 16 hours Kyle Defoor Advanced Pistol
• 24 hours (formally) with Sayoc Tactical Group on Edged Weapons and firearms. (3 times that informally with their cadre, most of whom are friends)

.

BTW, I don't give a shit about other people when I shoot. I shoot for me and only me. And I'm certainly secure enough that I don't have to impress a bunch of people I don't know.

But regardless, I don't know what that has to do with not shooting before a class. You failed to make a point.

This is a great list. So you should be a capable shooter and know better.

[Jim D]

But regardless, I don't know what that has to do with not shooting before a class. You failed to make a point.

This is a great list. So you should be a capable shooter and know better.

You might think that I "failed to make a point", but I think really you just failed to understand it. Maybe my explanations could have been clearer, but we have at least 3 people in this thread who have first hand experience seeing the benefit of not trying to "prep" for a class.

I've received more than a few PM's with a "thank you" for explaining my position, and have had a couple of phone calls with others, too.

And saying I "should know better"...really? Care to explain how you are qualified to make a judgement on this topic/ how I must be wrong?

[Gutshot John]

How did they quantify the benefit of not taking a class? It's a logical impossibility to prove such a statement. You cant prove the benefit of not doing something. While they might still have learned a lot in a class without prepping, who's to say they wouldn't have learned a lot more if they had?

Moreover you have a far greater number of people saying that they have benefitted from preparation. So how does that jive? There are obviously significant upsides to prepping (who'd have ever thought someone would seriously argue that being unprepared is better?) while there are plenty of downsides to being unprepared whether it be shooting class, college classes or whatever activity you engage in during your lifetime. Claiming that people have pm'd you says nothing other than they lack the will to make their argument publicly. Anonymous support is a specious way to make a case given the numbers of people here who have made the opposite case publicly.

You've filled this thread with wrongheaded notions by projecting your beliefs onto the actions of others. For Example we all go to shooting classes to learn to shoot better that's the whole point. You bizarrely assume that this means we prepare to be able to shoot better than the rest of the class when its been pretty apparent that we're preparing to shoot better than we as individuals have historically done. This is called improvement and the only objective reason to even take a class. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp? And yet you ridicule those that seek improvement by projecting your needs for ego fulfillment onto them. How does one shoot better by being unprepared?

As Tom said if preparing for a class means you're harming your ability to learn in that class you've got some psychologic issues that won't be addressed by either a class or preparation.

Your ego is getting in the way of your argument Jim. It's perhaps time to step back and acknowledge that you may be either be wrong or that it only really applies to you and a select few individuals rather than the shooting community writ large. For myself I think you're doing people a grave disservice by continuing to spout this nonsense as some sort of zen-like wisdom. Someone with your training background should indeed know better.

[Jim D]

How did they quantify the benefit of not taking a class? It's a logical impossibility to prove such a statement. You cant prove the benefit of not doing something.

Multiple people in this thread have demonstrated why not prepping for their class helped them. That is all the proof anyone needs. If you want to try and make it more complicated, have at it...it doesn't change the point, though.

Moreover you have a far greater number of people saying that they have benefitted from preparation. So how does that jive? There are obviously significant upsides to prepping (who'd have ever thought someone would seriously argue that being unprepared is better?) while there are plenty of downsides to being unprepared whether it be shooting class, college classes or whatever activity you engage in during your lifetime.

If you want to compare a college history class to shooting, that demonstrates how little you know about each.

What are you even calling "unprepared"? Myself, and others who share my position in this thread, are merely talking about not trying to practice before a class, solely because the class is coming up.

This says nothing about about not being a good shooter, or not practicing on your usual schedule. The entire point has been "don't try to self teach yourself how to do something when you have a class coming up soon" - let your instructor do it. Some people are too caught up in how they look in front of other people, which I believe is STRONGLY driving this whole "prep for a class" crap.

You've filled this thread with wrongheaded notions by projecting your beliefs onto the actions of others. For Example We all go to shooting classes to learn to shoot better that's the whole point. You bizarrely assume that this means we prepare to be able to shoot better than the rest of the class when its been pretty apparent that we're preparing to shoot better than we as individuals have done. This is called improvement. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp? How does one shoot better by being unprepared?

Again, you've missed the point. This is not about "shooting better" in the class, it's about being able to better absorb the material you're being shown.

Multiple people have given examples of how not trying to cram before the class helped them out....what is your issue with them?

As for "we all go to classes to learn to shoot better"...that's one of your assumptions that you're projecting on us, too (if you want to play that game).

I've seen plenty of guys at classes who refused to listen to the instruction they were given. Seen it at most classes I've been to. They were not there to learn, they were there for a merit badge.

So, you don't get to lecture me on projections and assumptions...you're doing exactly what you think I am.

As Tom said if preparing for a class means you're harming your ability to learn in that class you've got some psychologic issues that won't be addressed by either a class or preparation.

Maybe some of us don't agree with that explanation.

Most instructors will tell you they'd prefer a new student, to one that has learned something the wrong way. Ever hear of a "bad habit"?

How many threads to we see where guys getting ready to go into military service ask how to prepare for the shooting? The universal answer is "your drill sgts will show you everything you need to know".

No different, here. Practicing (and trying to get up to 100% speed) at an old way of doing things, likely won't help you perform a new way of doing things any better.

For example: I went and did an LAV 1911 class. On the 1911, I'm better off using my LH thumb than my RH thumb, to drop the slide on a reload. I'm well practiced at dropping it with my RH thumb, as that's how I do so on my Glocks. Whenever I tried to go fast, I instinctively tried to use my RH thumb first (sometimes it worked, but my grip had to break to do so), but it wasn't what I was trying to learn to do on the 1911 at that class.

If I went out and practiced reloads more before the class, it only would have been more of a struggle for me to get used to using my LH thumb.

How is it so hard to understand this concept? If you want to practice and freshly ingrain something you're trying to abandon for the class...how does practicing the old way before the class help you learn the new technique any better?

Your ego is getting in the way of your argument Jim. It's perhaps time to step back and acknowledge that you may be either be wrong or that it only really applies to you and a select few individuals rather than the shooting community writ large. For myself I think you're doing people a grave disservice by continuing to spout this nonsense.

I never said this applied to everyone, where as your argument seems to suggest that your approach does apply to everyone.

If you are not at the level that Shawn or myself are, and this doesn't apply to you...then don't do what we've found works for us. Everyone reading this thread has a brain and can decide what makes sense for them. If you think you need to be the guiding light, and any advice given to the contrary is a "grave disservice" then I'd say I'm not the one with the "ego problem".

While we're on egos...why are you still arguing with me then? Didn't you say you wanted to let this go, like 2 pages ago?

Think whatever you like, John...it's not going to bother me if you want to go to the range everyday for 2 weeks before your next class. If you think it'll help you, rock on.

If you still struggle learning the new material though, a wise person would re-consider their strategy and try a different approach.

So, what classes have you done?

What are some of your scores on stuff like the Hack/700/Defoor standards/10-8 standards/FAM TPC?

If you think your approach is the only way...what proof do you have that it's working for you better than my approach would?

[Shawn.L]

I always know, at least in the back of my head, that anything I post on the internet is likely to be taken out of context, misunderstood, attacked, praised for no good reason, or otherwise shat upon.

I just didnt think this was so crazy out there that of all things it would get people so wound up.

I never said guys shouldnt be prepared reasonably for class. In fact I never said anyone but me and the guy I was speaking about in the OP (who posted here and did great in that class btw) should do anything beyond not "gaming the class".
Im not giving advice to the internet at large. If you want some did nothing dude who took a couple classes and posts online to tell you how to run your gear or how to train there are plenty of blog's out there for that. That aint me.

Im simply sharing my personal experiances and asking about others, who relates, who doesnt, and lets discuss that.

In not sure why this is such a big damn deal, esp for those guys who are "trained".
Im prob in 8 classes this year. LAV, Defoor, Kier, Haught, ect ect ect. What exactly do I have to lose if I go to one relatively "cold" ?
If you think you have your shit together, you have invested in intial training and practice, and you have some confidence in your skills give it a shot.

If you think Im a fool thats fine.

You want to start the dick measuring I got no issues with that, mines plenty stout.

[Gutshot John]

No I'm afraid youre missing the point by insisting on making meaningless distinctions Shooting better, personal improvement, absorbing the material are all part of the same process. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time figuring this out.

As for the "bad habit" nonsense it assumes there is one objectively correct way of doing something. I have yet to hear any instructor say he wants his students to come unprepared. I have heard plenty of instructors lament when a student does exactly that.

But fair enough you've painted yourself into such a corner that any admission that you've overstated your case will constitute an admission that you're wrong. This explains much of your projection about ego etc... I would submit to you that just because you have a problem going to classes intent on being top shot and so you have to go through this absurd non-ritual ritual doesn't mean everyone has to, let alone should.

[Jim D]

No I'm afraid youre missing the point by insisting on making meaningless distinctions Shooting better, personal improvement, absorbing the material are all part of the same process. I'm not sure why you're having such a hard time figuring this out.

As for the "bad habit" nonsense it assumes there is one objectively correct way of doing something. I have yet to hear any instructor say he wants his students to come unprepared. I have heard plenty of instructors lament when a student does exactly that.

But fair enough you've painted yourself into such a corner that any admission that you've overstated your case will constitute an admission that you're wrong. This explains much of your projection about ego etc... I would submit to you that just because you have a problem going to classes intent on being top shot and so you have to go through this absurd non-ritual ritual doesn't mean everyone has to, let alone should.

John, none of that answered a single one of my questions.

Why?

[SteyrAUG]

I always know, at least in the back of my head, that anything I post on the internet is likely to be taken out of context, misunderstood, attacked, praised for no good reason, or otherwise shat upon.

I just didnt think this was so crazy out there that of all things it would get people so wound up.

You have NO IDEA.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the biggest non conformist on the internet.

On afrcom I wasn't conservative enough, on martial arts forums I'm so conservative I make Newt Gingrich seem like a Kennedy. On some military forums I have been criticized for seeking out weapons and training that shouldn't be made available to any "civie" and on other forums I have been criticized for not having current enough MIL/LE training.

At risk of being the kettle, everyone on the internet wants to be right and there is usually no telling them any different. The best case scenario is where two people can actually understand what the other is talking about and simply decide for themselves what works best. But even that seems to be asking a LOT sometimes.