The One Gun Solution (GP Carbine) - Reality?

[Core781]

I don't shoot 55 gr for anything other then training at 50 meters or closer. I have had bad experiences with 55 gr in the real world. I have taken shots, with hits, at 500 m with 62 gr ammo. I would not take a shot with a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel beyond that either.

One of the points that you are missing is that we are talking about is all types of situations, not just long range. Vehicle operations can be difficult with a 14.5 with a can on it. It is much better with a 12.5 and can. Driving around in a HiLux with a M4 is a Pain. Try even getting into a hilux with an 18 ich SPR with a can on it......

Nothing is perfect, but we are discussing the BEST solution. And i can tell you that less then 10% of the shots i took in combat were over 50 meters. And I have a "few" months doing this for real.

I invaded Iraq in 2003: I setup most of the maritime ops in the south for the invasion. Worked with our SPECOPS teams and allied in Southcom, Eucom, Centcom, and Pacom from many nations. I have six years working in and around hostile environments and twice that many years doing JTF maritime stuff. None of that makes me an expert at small arms platforms but I was in fact a small arms threat expert. I was trained in NAB by what was at the time Blackwater contractors and some other fleet training groups. My first armorer's course was in 2008, and was taught by Izzy of Bushmaster. He was taught by Stoner and Sullivan: I spent time with Sullivan and other talented folks, on a number of occasions. I have worked on several projects involving prototype testing, loadouts, and theorized a superior .24/.25 AR cartridge in 2008 when everyone laughed at anything not .30 or .22

I agree with you on vehicle use: I would use a 10" for vehicles myself or a pistol. I figured OP might open his mind to the reality that a 12.5" is not ideal as a one carbine solution for the reasons I explained. It's certainly a good utility carbine that can do the majority of practical stuff as you mention. Don't get me wrong I am not trolling: I believe we are better served to have multiple platforms that are better suited for the tasks. A pistol secondary for vehicles and a 14.5+" carbine. I understand the suppressor size constraints: not sure how practical a suppressor is if you are returning fire from inside a vehicle? Signature reduction at that point with a 12.5" is going to be deafening none the less. So maybe a suppressed subgun or pistol? I used MP5N/SDs in small metal shipboard spaces they excel at that environment. I have an SPR that is lethal inside 1800 meters and considering "we" are trained to use the "extent" of our platform... I live around small mountains with plenty of downward vantages that exceed 2000 meters in Maine. It would be a shame to have a 12.5" and think it was good enough: I often cannot identify objects without magnification here: meaning 12.5" would be obsolete. I could not drop a whitetail with a 12.5" across one of the fields ethically but my SPR would do it at 18" with my federal trophy cartridges. So many stereotypes being brought up here. Everyone has opinions, but can your opinions walk the walk?

[Wake27]

I invaded Iraq in 2003: I setup most of the maritime ops in the south for the invasion. Worked with our SPECOPS teams and allied in Southcom, Eucom, Centcom, and Pacom from many nations. I have six years working in and around hostile environments and twice that many years doing JTF maritime stuff. None of that makes me an expert at small arms platforms but I was in fact a small arms threat expert. I was trained in NAB by what was at the time Blackwater contractors and some other fleet training groups. My first armorer's course was in 2008, and was taught by Izzy of Bushmaster. He was taught by Stoner and Sullivan: I spent time with Sullivan and other talented folks, on a number of occasions. I have worked on several projects involving prototype testing, loadouts, and theorized a superior .24/.25 AR cartridge in 2008 when everyone laughed at anything not .30 or .22

I agree with you on vehicle use: I would use a 10" for vehicles myself or a pistol. I figured OP might open his mind to the reality that a 12.5" is not ideal as a one carbine solution for the reasons I explained. It's certainly a good utility carbine that can do the majority of practical stuff as you mention. Don't get me wrong I am not trolling: I believe we are better served to have multiple platforms that are better suited for the tasks. A pistol secondary for vehicles and a 14.5+" carbine. I understand the suppressor size constraints: not sure how practical a suppressor is if you are returning fire from inside a vehicle? Signature reduction at that point with a 12.5" is going to be deafening none the less. So maybe a suppressed subgun or pistol? I used MP5N/SDs in small metal shipboard spaces they excel at that environment. I have an SPR that is lethal inside 1800 meters and considering "we" are trained to use the "extent" of our platform... I live around small mountains with plenty of downward vantages that exceed 2000 meters in Maine. It would be a shame to have a 12.5" and think it was good enough: I often cannot identify objects without magnification here: meaning 12.5" would be obsolete. I could not drop a whitetail with a 12.5" across one of the fields ethically but my SPR would do it at 18" with my federal trophy cartridges. So many stereotypes being brought up here. Everyone has opinions, but can your opinions walk the walk?

Yeah and I’m currently assigned to an active duty special operations unit. Guess what? No one cares. In this realm, unless you’ve actually shot people with the tools we’re discussing, most experience means very little. My 12.5 has a 10x scope on it so I can see pretty well. Pistols and subguns suck at killing people. We’ve known that for some time. I’d rather give up some maneuverability over a pistol in CQB and potentially lethal effects on target at over 400 and still dominate terminal ballistics and accuracy for everything in between. So 12.5 with solid LPVO seems as close to “do all” as it gets, which is the whole point of this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Core781]

Yeah and I’m currently assigned to an active duty special operations unit. Guess what? No one cares. In this realm, unless you’ve actually shot people with the tools we’re discussing, most experience means very little. My 12.5 has a 10x scope on it so I can see pretty well. Pistols and subguns suck at killing people. We’ve known that for some time. I’d rather give up some maneuverability over a pistol in CQB and potentially lethal effects on target at over 400 and still dominate terminal ballistics and accuracy for everything in between. So 12.5 with solid LPVO seems as close to “do all” as it gets, which is the whole point of this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are full of it.

[Wake27]

You are full of it.

The context should indicate that pistols and subguns suck at killing people compared to rifles. If that didn’t click, or if it did and I’m still full of it, that’s cool and I’ll let you know the next time I’ve got a question about how to conduct a VBSS in 2003 bro.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rogue556]

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[maximus83]

You are full of it.

Thus spake the ninja, warfighter who deployed to many nations, and disciple of Izzy of Bushmaster.

[Vegas]

Fun thread.

[1986s4]

I am now a regular civilian interested in protecting my family and myself. My service did not include any foreign deployments, I was not the "tip of the spear" more like the grip tape on the handle. I was not getting into and out of vehicles with a rifle, not even a pistol.
I think for many of us without a tax stamp for a SBR that the 14.5 PW is the best solution. I have considered a 5.56 pistol but have yet to "pull the trigger" on that question. My go-to is a 14.5 PW Colt SOCOM barrel. No optics yet because I have not found what I want. I had a nice Aimpoint that did everything Aimpoint's are famous for but my eyes changed enough that the dot was not longer a dot. At close range it was fine but out at 300m I found it impossible to use accurately. After removing it I found that I was accurate with good iron sights, so much so that I believe that if I can see the target I can hit it.

Nothing Chinese which narrows my selection considerably.

[mig1nc]

I am now a regular civilian interested in protecting my family and myself. My service did not include any foreign deployments, I was not the "tip of the spear" more like the grip tape on the handle. I was not getting into and out of vehicles with a rifle, not even a pistol.
I think for many of us without a tax stamp for a SBR that the 14.5 PW is the best solution. I have considered a 5.56 pistol but have yet to "pull the trigger" on that question. My go-to is a 14.5 PW Colt SOCOM barrel. No optics yet because I have not found what I want. I had a nice Aimpoint that did everything Aimpoint's are famous for but my eyes changed enough that the dot was not longer a dot. At close range it was fine but out at 300m I found it impossible to use accurately. After removing it I found that I was accurate with good iron sights, so much so that I believe that if I can see the target I can hit it.

Nothing Chinese which narrows my selection considerably.

You could have both, use the Aimpoint for fast shooting, flip up irons for precision at distance.

Plus there's the dot through the irons trick you could try.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1168]

Lol at the Hilux. When I got my introduction to doing hoodrat shit in compact cars and trucks, I was a Mk46 gunner. I feel what you mean. Hilarious, a bunch of roidragers with gats clowncarring in those rides. I had the “I swim better than you” half of our compound convinced that I literally didn’t know how to drive.

Vehicle operations can be difficult with a 14.5 with a can on it. It is much better with a 12.5 and can. Driving around in a HiLux with a M4 is a Pain. Try even getting into a hilux with an 18 ich SPR with a can on it......

Nothing is perfect, but we are discussing the BEST solution. And i can tell you that less then 10% of the shots i took in combat were over 50 meters. And I have a "few" months doing this for real.

A 12.5” gun is perfectly capable of engaging at 400m. I think most of us know that, and some of us have practical experience with various SBR’s. Realistically, I don’t want to engage that target unless I’m hanging out with a dozen homies and there’s a reason to engage it.

Vehicle operations should definitely be a consideration for a “do it all” gun. I’ve played with this with everything from 10.3” to 16”, with and without cans, and I’d go with an 11.3” to 12.5” gun and the shortest practical can. The 14.5” will work, but I’d probably leave the can off and pray I don’t have to actually use it.

FOR ME, I’m finding lately that I start to steer away from my 11.3” gun past 300 meters or yards or whatever. I shoot mostly 62-70gr ammo, because reasons. It’ll go further, its just thats about where the weaknesses start to show. Its also near the lower limit of where my K cans make sense. I think a 12.5” would meet the OP’s goals of 400m and night capable pretty well.