The One Gun Solution (GP Carbine) - Reality?

[mig1nc]

This is not the best video, but he does a good job of explaining what I was talking about.

It's not a new idea, in fact it's always been there and as he says, Leupold was talking about it way back when too.

https://youtu.be/zQ6MubBBK-o


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[Ironman8]

This is not the best video, but he does a good job of explaining what I was talking about.

It's not a new idea, in fact it's always been there and as he says, Leupold was talking about it way back when too.

https://youtu.be/zQ6MubBBK-o


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Personally I think it would be slower than just popping your head up an inch to get in the piggyback optic. Not to mention that now your optic is now off axis (out of line) from your bore.

[Ironman8]

I replied with the first pic earlier in this thread. From having tried piles of optics over the years I honestly believed that a "one gun" solution was not a reality. The one thing I'd never tried before and really wanted to was the piggyback RMR on the ACOG. The TA11 specifically because it is the most forgiving ACOG. Huge FOV compared to the TA33, but massive eye relief compared to the TA31. Sure it's bigger and heavier than those models, but at 14oz it's still lighter than pretty much all LPVO's, especially once you factor in the mount. The ACOG glass is marvelous and those that have shot a lot know that glass quality trumps magnification. If you look back a few pages you'll see a 10-shot .88 MOA group I fired at 100yds with Speer Gold Dot from a COLT 14.5" barrel using a TA11 ACOG. The point is, that if you have the right reticle and good glass, 3.5X magnification can be better than 6X or 8X with worse glass and reticle. Adding the RMR on top of the ACOG is NOT the chin-weld everyone said it would be. I find it to be far faster to move my head slightly up/down to switch between the optics and it's faster than rolling the gun...at least for me. I've had offset dot and irons setups in the past and they were nowhere near as fast and intuitive as the piggyback RMR.

Like @Valhalla I treat the RMR as the primary sight and then drop into the ACOG when the shot calls for it (Precision, distance, whatever).

Mark 10:8 “...and the two shall become one.”

So are you saying that you now find the ACOG/RMR to be the answer to your one gun solution?

[ASH556]

So are you saying that you now find the ACOG/RMR to be the answer to your one gun solution?

**** it

[jesuvuah]

Yes, 100%. The Aimpoint is the solution most of the time, unless you need precision or distance. The ACOG is also the solution most of the time, unless you need speed inside 25 yds, especially if you and/or the target are moving. Theoretically a 1-4/6/8 does both, but even after owning and/or shooting several of the best of those, I never felt the “1X” was all the way as good as a red dot up close at speed when moving and the top end glass was never as clear as an ACOG. Then you have size and weight.

I can run the piggybacked RMR with every bit as much confidence as an Aimpoint closeup, at speed, moving. I zeroed it and ran some 7yd speed standards to body, head, and multiple shot strings including target transitions. Total confidence running at my absolute max speed. Then, I cleared my house in low light. Same confidence. The NX8 on 1X is the closest LPVO to and Aimpoint I’ve used, but low light movement is where I saw things I didn’t like. Not an issue with the RMR.

As to the rotated rifle/non-dominant eye thing...I tried it and it can work for coming out of the ACOG quickly, but I’m using the RMR as my primary optic and only pressing down into the ACOG when the shot calls for it (distance, precision, etc). It is unnatural to always bring the gun up canted...more so when trying to bring up a canted rifle and find a dot with your non-dominant eye.

Compared to an LPVO, dropping from the RMR to the ACOG is faster than spinning a mag lever.

So yeah, 100% one gun solution for me from indoors to probably 500 or so. Realistically where I live, the farthest shot is 250. 10.3” barrel plus full size can is a little shorter than a 14.5” carbine, but quieter and with good ammo, plenty effective.

I am putting this set up on my 11.5 right now, although it is a ta31. I have always love my acog. I would take it over any 1-4x. I just purchased a 1-8x accupower for my 16" gun. The acog formerly lived in that gun. So I will be able to put both optic set ups head to head.

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[Valhalla]

Personally I think it would be slower than just popping your head up an inch to get in the piggyback optic. Not to mention that now your optic is now off axis (out of line) from your bore.

From experience, moving the rifle is always faster than moving my head. The qualification there is that you need to considered it a "2 way street". I used to be very good at popping my head up and use top-mounted piggyback RMR, but "rapidly returning" to the magnified optic gets tricky. What I've found is that once I break my cheek-weld, doesn't matter how much practice I've put in and how much I have familiarized with my rifle... it will still take a tiny fraction of time to find the eye box. But if I simply rotate the rifle, when I rotate it back to the magnified optic my eye is straight back into the eye box (because none of my head/neck/cheek weld and shouldering position has changed). Now that might be because I sucked at shooting or just not practice enough, however if I can cheat through a new/better setup... then why not.

Also, unless we are trying to hit sub-MOA groups, at the intended distance and target one typically use a red dot (human, ~25 yards) the optic being off-axis really shouldn't matter. Just sight-in the RMR with the rifle in the canted position at 25 yard, so anywhere between point-blank to ~50 yards the impact will be within 3 inches of where your dot is. Plenty good enough for center-mass or even head shot. Nonetheless, if you intend to take longer shots with the dot, then an offset optic like my currently-preferred setup would eliminate that issue. I can hit 100 yard steel plates consistently with the offset RDS, because it has a 25/100 yd zero. Can't really do that with off-axis RDS.

[Valhalla]

It is unnatural to always bring the gun up canted...more so when trying to bring up a canted rifle and find a dot with your non-dominant eye.

I am an odd ball as I am left-eye dominant but right-handed. However I do agree 100% for most people switching eyes on-the-fly is difficult, especially between dominant and non-dominant eyes. However, as far as bringing the gun up canted being "unnatural", personally I think that's more a habit than ergonomic.

Here is my favorite example again - hold up your fist like you want to punch somebody. If there is a stick held in your fist, would that stick be pointing straight up? No... it would be canted. Because that's "more natural". What we are REALLY talking here, is that most shooters are already accustomed to "rotating" the gun while bringing it up, instead of bring it "straight up". That extra motion of rolling your wrist is baked into our body through repetition, as a necessity due to how traditional optics are setup - not because it's more natural.

By the way I've recently came across this video, it's someone else promoting their new product but the setup is very similar to how I've been running mine for over a year. Yes some propaganda is present... but it does show canted red dots are just as fast, if not faster, than traditional red dots.



So, non-dominant eye = slow, yes 100% agreed! While canted gun = unnatural, that might be debatable...



VT

[hotrodder636]

I am kinda confused with the difference you are referencing between “offset RDS” and “off-axis RDS”. What are you meaning with those two phrasings?

From experience, moving the rifle is always faster than moving my head. The qualification there is that you need to considered it a "2 way street". I used to be very good at popping my head up and use top-mounted piggyback RMR, but "rapidly returning" to the magnified optic gets tricky. What I've found is that once I break my cheek-weld, doesn't matter how much practice I've put in and how much I have familiarized with my rifle... it will still take a tiny fraction of time to find the eye box. But if I simply rotate the rifle, when I rotate it back to the magnified optic my eye is straight back into the eye box (because none of my head/neck/cheek weld and shouldering position has changed). Now that might be because I sucked at shooting or just not practice enough, however if I can cheat through a new/better setup... then why not.

Also, unless we are trying to hit sub-MOA groups, at the intended distance and target one typically use a red dot (human, ~25 yards) the optic being off-axis really shouldn't matter. Just sight-in the RMR with the rifle in the canted position at 25 yard, so anywhere between point-blank to ~50 yards the impact will be within 3 inches of where your dot is. Plenty good enough for center-mass or even head shot. Nonetheless, if you intend to take longer shots with the dot, then an offset optic like my currently-preferred setup would eliminate that issue. I can hit 100 yard steel plates consistently with the offset RDS, because it has a 25/100 yd zero. Can't really do that with off-axis RDS.

[Valhalla]

I am kinda confused with the difference you are referencing between “offset RDS” and “off-axis RDS”. What are you meaning with those two phrasings?

Offset means the RDS is "mounted" not at 12 o'clock of the gun. "Off axis" means *when you are shooting the gun* the RDS is not positioned directly above the barrel.

So, for example, most people would rotate their guns when using an offset RDS so that the dot is directly above the bore, thus making it "not off axis" during use. The previously posted video of Mr. Jerry Miculek speed-shooting is a good example. Whereas, the technique of rolling your gun so the top-mounted / piggybacked RMR on top of an ACOG is usable on your "weak side" eye, is an example of "non-offset" RDS that's being shot under off-axis condition.

Similarly, if you have a 45-degree offset RDS but you are laying the rifle flat on it's side (eg. shooting through the bottom of a vehicle), the RDS would not be directly over the bore so you would be shooting an "offset RDS off-axis". And lastly, if you simply pop your head up and use the top-mounted RMR without rolling the gun, then your RDS is neither offset nor off-axis.

Make sense?



VT

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[vicious_cb]

3.5x is just not enough mag for a GP gun for PID. The TA11 was cool back in 2001, for what if offers you can get much more capability for the size and weight of that optic.