Am I the only one starting to prefer iron sights?

[C-grunt]

Having two lines of sight and having to develop muscle memory for both seems like overcomplicating things.

You might develop muscle memory during a draw and presentation but you aren't using that for fine tuning your aim once you are at full extension.

[okie]

If you need to develop your “muscle memory” for a difference of probably a millimeter or less, maybe firearms aren’t for you.

And I'm the one getting dragged here? Seriously??? Transitioning from one sighting system to another that's on a different plane isn't a matter of just looking up or down. It involves minute, fine movements in dozens of different muscles. And that's not even mentioning the training that it takes to even do that automatically under stress, to have that presence of mind to even switch to the irons in the first place. It takes thousands of repetitions to be able to perform something like that under stress, and yes, it takes muscle memory to be able to make that transition.

[okie]

You might develop muscle memory during a draw and presentation but you aren't using that for fine tuning your aim once you are at full extension.

Maybe I don't understand the exact definition of muscle memory, but I do know that going from a dot to lower third irons takes more than a little bit of practice. It's basically double the work to be able to use both. You have to completely shift your head position, effectively meaning you're training to do two separate things from two separate positions.

[okie]

I'm not kidding, I can get you in touch with Bill Blowers, you could let him know all that you know about RDS shooting and ESPECIALLY all that you know about PISTOL RDS shooting with your literal 0% knowledge.

Read more. Post Less. Seek training.

But you wont. You wont read more. You wont post less. You wont get training. You think you know everything, yet you know nothing. So many guys in here with years of not only sweat & blood equity, but also six-figures of $$$ invested in their training and gear and yet your "innagrass" is the end all be all. You could be a success story, you could shut up, quit posting, go take a real class, and come back having seen the gospel. But we both know you wont, so you remain an ignorant forum member with all others laughing at you.

READ MORE. POST LESS. SEEK TRAINING.

But you won't.

Like I said before, we have nothing left to say to one another. You contribute nothing but snarky remarks, and you intentionally mischaracterize and take out of context everything someone says just to derail the discussion and start drama.

[Inkslinger]

And I'm the one getting dragged here? Seriously??? Transitioning from one sighting system to another that's on a different plane isn't a matter of just looking up or down. It involves minute, fine movements in dozens of different muscles. And that's not even mentioning the training that it takes to even do that automatically under stress, to have that presence of mind to even switch to the irons in the first place. It takes thousands of repetitions to be able to perform something like that under stress, and yes, it takes muscle memory to be able to make that transition.

Lol! Read more, post less, seek professional training.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

And I'm the one getting dragged here? Seriously??? Transitioning from one sighting system to another that's on a different plane isn't a matter of just looking up or down. It involves minute, fine movements in dozens of different muscles. And that's not even mentioning the training that it takes to even do that automatically under stress, to have that presence of mind to even switch to the irons in the first place. It takes thousands of repetitions to be able to perform something like that under stress, and yes, it takes muscle memory to be able to make that transition.

Yes, you're the one getting dragged here because you don't have any idea what you're talking about and instead of listening to the people telling you why you're wrong you're just doubling down and skinning your ignorance for the world to see.

You don't know how to use a red dot.
You don't know when a red dot is turned on or not.
You don't know what muscle memory is.
You don't know that aiming with iron sights and aiming with a red dot are two different processes.
You just don't know and are unwilling to admit you are dead wrong about just about everything in this thread.

You overcomplicate the daylights out of everything. You've overcomplicated the simple process of switching between optics/sights at different centerline heights. It's not even remotely as hard as you think it is. You know how I know that? Because I do it all the time. My MK18 is sporting an Aimpoint micro on a Unity 2.26" FAST mount. My 6933 has an Aimpoint Pro with a SKD 1.93" riser. My kid's M&P 15-22 has an Aimpoint micro on a lower 1/3 mount. My Draco has a railed dust cover with an Aimpoint micro on it. I don't even have any idea what the height of it is in comparison with my ARs. You know why? Because it doesn't matter. All this reliance on muscle memory and cheek weld and perfect body position and NTCH you keep spouting off about is nothing but bullshit and reminds me of the boomers in the 90s and early 2000s constantly ranting about their High Power scores. It's not relevant to shooting a rifle in this context.

Have you ever taken a rifle class? What did you do when you were presented with a less than ideal shooting position? Have you ever shot a VTAC barricade? You ever engaged a target over the hood of a car with the gun laying on it's side? How about underneath a vehicle? Where is your muscle memory going to take you in these situations okie?

Like others have said. Seek quality training, you don't know what you don't know.

[B Cart]

And I'm the one getting dragged here? Seriously???

I've been gone for a few days, and surprised you are still doubling down on this, especially with zero real training and experience to back it up. In the words of Kenny Rodgers, sometimes you need to "know when to fold em, and when to walk away". The time to "fold em and walk away" was about 23 pages ago.

Like others have said, go take a year of quality training classes from reputable instructors, keeping an open mind to learn, and then you might have something useful to add on the topic.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I have a Holosun 509T on top of a TA31 w/KRAM spacer. That's a wild combo, almost 3" high on the 509, and 1.73 on the ACOG. My duty carbine has a FAST T2 and magnifier at 2.26. My wife's 6920 has an H1 in a DD Lower 1/3. My SLR104 has a T1 mounted in place of the rear sight. Knowing what setup you are running, training from simple ready ups to VTAC barricades, etc, eliminates this irrational fear of not having a consistent cheekweld and muscle memory.

I ran my ACOG/509 on my VTAC Barricade last week. While challenging, it was no more different than any other setup beyond understanding the 3" holdover for the dot vs the 2" holdover for the crosshair.

Okie mentioned that training "innagrass" is so much more beneficial than what we do on flat ranges with timers. Thats an insane statement. Run a timed 9-Hole drill, then get back to me. Actually training with your gun, under time, allows you to understand it's potential and limitations.

I still think there's hope for ol' Okie. He may still seek training, whether or not he comes back and admits how wrong he was is up in the air.

As for me and my tribe, we'll run 9-holes, FAST drills, and timers til we die or something better comes along.

[utahjeepr]

I predict "innagrass" becomes a M4C shorthand reference for a long time to come. Okie, yer gonna be infamous.

[Alpha-17]

And I'm the one getting dragged here? Seriously???

Yes, you are. And maybe that should tell you something. While simply going with the majority opinion isn't always wise, it should force you to stop and reevaluate your own positions.

And because no internet argument is complete without one, here's a meme.