FBI'S 'Newest' 9MM Duty Load ?

[Defaultmp3]

A solid bullet will do that with no problem. Now add a barrier like a car door in front of that. That's why the Critical Duty that penetrates 20 inches in gel that was chosen has a good track record.

Neither FMJs nor Critical Duty bullets are solid bullets.

This is why I have a problem with 12. The Winchester 115gr Silvertip penetrated 10 to 11 inches. TNoutdoors9 got 11.25. but he used Sim Test media. That Silvertip is what started this whole mess. They went to 10 mm which made the higher 18 mark but was too much for some than downgraded to the .40 and finally the 9 which both do about 13 to 14 average. If the Silvertip failed at 11, an extra 3 inches isn't that much more for many scenarios where conditions aren't perfect.

Who cares about Silvertip? It's an outdated bullet design that is not barrier blind. And then, just because something penetrates a certain distance in bare gel, doesn't mean it won't penetrate more after a barrier. For example, Gary Robert's 147 gr duty round tests showed that Gold Dot G2 penetrated 16.4" in bare gel, 17.4" in four layer denim, and 15.7” in auto glass, while Winchester Ranger Bonded penetrated 15.5" in BG, 19.4" in 4LD, and 16.3" in AG (source: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....y-load-testing).

I'm not totally convinced with gel test numbers. MAC from the Military Arms Channel shot a pig in the shoulders with an Xtreme Penetrator that does 30 plus inches in gel and it didn't even make it past the 2nd shoulder to exit. It wasn't a huge pig either. It was average sized.

First, we have to ask if MAC used properly calibrated gel. Second, you are aware that penetration in calibrated gel does not correspond to the same amount of penetration in flesh, let alone an actual human body?

[wtm75]

Please link to the results of your fmj test through a car door or auto glass and calibrated ordinance gel.
Deflection matters as well...



You do know that attempting to draw correlations, relevant to this discussion, between a bear or 1000lb moose and humans is not acceptable, right?

Because your comment makes me think that you think it is valid.

Search YouTube. They are all over the place. It after you saying that an FMJ or any other solid bullet cannot penetrate a car door? Hell, a hollow point can.

As far as animals go, my point is that a non expanding bullet kills tough animals. No expansion is necessary. But for some reason, it's necessary for thin skinned humans.

Neither FMJs nor Critical Duty bullets are solid bullets.

Who cares about Silvertip? It's an outdated bullet design that is not barrier blind. And then, just because something penetrates a certain distance in bare gel, doesn't mean it won't penetrate more after a barrier. For example, Gary Robert's 147 gr duty round tests showed that Gold Dot G2 penetrated 16.4" in bare gel, 17.4" in four layer denim, and 15.7” in auto glass, while Winchester Ranger Bonded penetrated 15.5" in BG, 19.4" in 4LD, and 16.3" in AG (source: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....y-load-testing).

First, we have to ask if MAC used properly calibrated gel. Second, you are aware that penetration in calibrated gel does not correspond to the same amount of penetration in flesh, let alone an actual human body?

Mac shot a pig with the Xtreme Penetrator. Not gel. Other testers have gotten 30 plus inches with it in calibrated gel.

Never said the Critical Duty was a solid bullet. If you read my previous posts, I say that they barely expand. That insinuates that I know it's a hollow point. As far as FMJ's go which are jacketed lead (you really didn't really think I didn't know that based on my previous posts?) I called it a solid to differentiate it from a hollow point. My point is that "solid" bullets like FMJ's, (I'm lumping it into the solid category for the sake of discussion) Hard Casts, and monolithic copper bullets all get penetration past 20 inches in gel. The Critical Duty has no such problems because it barely expands and reaches penetration numbers that regular hollow points do not because it kind of acts like a solid bullet with little to no expansion.

Those links you posted are great. But you cannot tell me that 16 inches or 17 is better than 20 plus and more when going through barriers followed by unoptimal angles into the body. Most hollow points don't even get those 17 inches. The average is around 13.

The HST which gets 16 inches in gel fragmented to holy hell after going through bone in Ap2020's test limiting penetration.

[Defaultmp3]

It after you saying that an FMJ or any other solid bullet cannot penetrate a car door? Hell, a hollow point can.

My point is that "solid" bullets like FMJ's, (I'm lumping it into the solid category for the sake of discussion) Hard Casts, and monolithic copper bullets all get penetration past 20 inches in gel.

The point is that just because an FMJ can penetrate a car door or window, does not mean it performs well after such penetration. Deep penetration in bare gel does not equate acceptable intermediate barrier performance. Barrier blind duty rounds will outperform FMJs in terminal performance after intermediate barrier penetration; true solid bullets generally also do so, unlike FMJs which fragment and deform after intermediate barriers, hence why I brought it up. Thus, the use of FMJs due to purported superior barrier defeat is totally off-base.

[Todd.K]

You are limited to subpar ammo with .380 ...

In a "FBI's 9mm load" thread, unless I specified a different caliber I'm talking about 9mm loads.

I agree with the choice of penetration over expansion, but only in sub duty calibers where we can't have both.

[wtm75]

The point is that just because an FMJ can penetrate a car door or window, does not mean it performs well after such penetration. Deep penetration in bare gel does not equate acceptable intermediate barrier performance. Barrier blind duty rounds will outperform FMJs in terminal performance after intermediate barrier penetration; true solid bullets generally also do so, unlike FMJs which fragment and deform after intermediate barriers, hence why I brought it up. Thus, the use of FMJs due to purported superior barrier defeat is totally off-base.

Yes. You do have a point that FMJ can or will fragment after going through a barrier. I'll concede that.

A hard cast or monolithic copper bullet like the ones from Lehigh will be better choices for that.

[1168]

Second, you are aware that penetration in calibrated gel does not correspond to the same amount of penetration in flesh, let alone an actual human body?

Bears repeating. 12” in gel is not 12” in flesh; 18” in gel is not 18” in flesh. 12”-18” in gel was chosen because it correlates with acceptable performance in humans, not because it produces the exact same numbers in flesh.

Edit: side note: anyone know where I can find videos or documentation of quality tests of FMJ vs barrier+gelatin?

Edit 2: interesting thread here, with Doc KGR: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?116560-FMJ-the-best-barrier-blind-handgun-load&

[MegademiC]

Search YouTube. They are all over the place. It after you saying that an FMJ or any other solid bullet cannot penetrate a car door? Hell, a hollow point can.

As far as animals go, my point is that a non expanding bullet kills tough animals. No expansion is necessary. But for some reason, it's necessary for thin skinned humans.

Fmj through barrier + gel. Link please? I cant find one.
Hunting and SD are very different requirements. SD your not trying to kill, wait, and track a blood trail- you want to stop a threat as quick as possible.
Hardcast is used because youre trying to get enough penetration on a 400lb bear or other large animal with vastly different structure, bone thickness, etc than a human.

If what you say is true, why not carry a 44mag like people hiking in bear country?

Back on track :
1. Current loads on “ the list” perform adequately after passing through barriers commonly encountered.
2. Fmj may or may not penetrate adequatly after passing through barriers.
3. Failure to expand will allow a threat more time to be a threat - all else being equal.
4. The inly way to stop a threat reliably is physiologically (blood loss). Expanded HP leads to faster blood loss than fmj, which is why they are recommended.

As i said before - fmj allows tissue to strech resulting in a very small hole. Even a hP that opens to same diameter as the round leads to a much larger wound channel as the flat front leads to crushed tissue like a wad cutter.

[Uni-Vibe]

As i said before - fmj allows tissue to strech resulting in a very small hole. Even a hP that opens to same diameter as the round leads to a much larger wound channel as the flat front leads to crushed tissue like a wad cutter.[/QUOTE]

Not so a pathologist could tell. They can't tell from a wound channel what caliber it was, HP or FMJ, .357 or .38, did it expand or not.

I know I'm swimming upstream against received wisdom here. Most of what we "know" about bullets in bodies is received wisdom passed along, wishful thinking, belief in technology, and "common sense" assumptions. But when you get away from all this, and look at the actual results of shootings, the bodies and bullets tell a different story.

As far as any pathologist or ER doctor can tell, bullets are bullets are bullets. That's why I shoot FMJ in my carry guns.

[wtm75]

Fmj through barrier + gel. Link please? I cant find one.
Hunting and SD are very different requirements. SD your not trying to kill, wait, and track a blood trail- you want to stop a threat as quick as possible.
Hardcast is used because youre trying to get enough penetration on a 400lb bear or other large animal with vastly different structure, bone thickness, etc than a human.

If what you say is true, why not carry a 44mag like people hiking in bear country?

Back on track :
1. Current loads on “ the list” perform adequately after passing through barriers commonly encountered.
2. Fmj may or may not penetrate adequatly after passing through barriers.
3. Failure to expand will allow a threat more time to be a threat - all else being equal.
4. The inly way to stop a threat reliably is physiologically (blood loss). Expanded HP leads to faster blood loss than fmj, which is why they are recommended.

As i said before - fmj allows tissue to strech resulting in a very small hole. Even a hP that opens to same diameter as the round leads to a much larger wound channel as the flat front leads to crushed tissue like a wad cutter.

The size of the hole isn't what immediately stops you. It's the penetration to vitals. So a shot that doesn't reach vitals is just like the deer running away from you and you having to track it. I'm glad you brought that up. It's the same analogy. The fight is still left in the assailant.
When stopping someone you have to put their lights out just like an animal. The size of the hole is irrelevant. Penetration to vitals is all that matters for immediate incapacitation. Do you know how many people survive hollow point wounds in hospitals every day to non-vitals? As I've repeated over and over, a shot to the stomach or shoulder or lung for that matter isn't going to immediately put your lights up no matter if the size of the hole is .355 or.586. the slightly extra blood loss isn't going to magically Knock You Out within seconds if the projectile is 1 or 2 mm larger.

As far as the link, I can't find it either on YouTube. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. But I remember seeing it through a car door and auto glass. The gel was behind it. FMJ zipped right through the gel. The hollow point stopped about halfway.

[Defaultmp3]

Not so a pathologist could tell. They can't tell from a wound channel what caliber it was, HP or FMJ, .357 or .38, did it expand or not.

I know I'm swimming upstream against received wisdom here. Most of what we "know" about bullets in bodies is received wisdom passed along, wishful thinking, belief in technology, and "common sense" assumptions. But when you get away from all this, and look at the actual results of shootings, the bodies and bullets tell a different story.

As far as any pathologist or ER doctor can tell, bullets are bullets are bullets. That's why I shoot FMJ in my carry guns.

I see a lot of GSW's. I do have selection bias, I only see the dead guys with GSWs. When I examine a wound track at autopsy, I can't tell the difference between 9 and 40. I can sometimes tell a 45 was used. Depends on what/where it hits but it does leave a bit bigger hole. Other than location, what does seem to make the most difference is what bullet was used. Good quality defensive bullets do a better job than crappy stuff. Yes, I know it's obvious, but a lot of thugs use whatever they find. Those bullets tear up, fall apart and sometimes only are successful from numbers or luck. The better bullets that we see, sometimes from LEO guns, do exactly what they are supposed to, dump a lot of damage, stop in the dead guy and generally ruin his day. Survival time is reduced and the hospitals have a much harder time fixing the injury.

Source: http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/re...43236914629998