AAR Vickers Tactical Home Defense / US Training Center (Moyock, NC) Nov 4-6th 2011

[d90king]

What else has changed that you know of?

Guys had issues buying frang which in the past was no problem and access has gotten to be a PITA in some cases. Far less staff than in years past. Steel targets systems not working properly amongst other things. None of which are really a big issue and when something didn't work they got it up and running. It is obvious though that they are working with a very thinly spread staff.


I bring everything with me to class so it wasnt an issue, but it was for a couple of others.

[NCPatrolAR]

Great reviews and it sounds like an absolutely awesome class.

The thing that stops me, as well as some people from taking the class is the need to buy the heavy body armor that I will never likly use elsewhere.

For someone flying there is the nightmare of the logistics of getting all of that gear there, but as we can see some people did brave it.

I always try to bring extra armor when headed to classes such as these. You could always ask to borrow an extra carrier with plates

[M4Guru]

USTC/BW definitely seems to have scaled back their support functions in the last two years...but I also don't see every range full anymore and the place busting at the seams with customers like it used to so that's to be expected.

If the facility was still a cash cow they wouldn't have sold it...

By coordinating here on the forums or with Grey Group CS, usually loaner armor hasn't been a problem for anyone. Don't let that stop you, we'll figure something out.

[C45P312]

Guys had issues buying frang which in the past was no problem and access has gotten to be a PITA in some cases. Far less staff than in years past. Steel targets systems not working properly amongst other things. None of which are really a big issue and when something didn't work they got it up and running. It is obvious though that they are working with a very thinly spread staff.


I bring everything with me to class so it wasnt an issue, but it was for a couple of others.

USTC/BW definitely seems to have scaled back their support functions in the last two years...but I also don't see every range full anymore and the place busting at the seams with customers like it used to so that's to be expected.

If the facility was still a cash cow they wouldn't have sold it...

By coordinating here on the forums or with Grey Group CS, usually loaner armor hasn't been a problem for anyone. Don't let that stop you, we'll figure something out.

Man, that sucks. I remember when that place use to be bustling! I can understand though. Maybe the new management is just rearranging and will be at full capacity in a coming months. It doesn't help that they're increasing rates for their classes too. I would imagine that they'll be increasing rates for 3rd party instructors as well.

I posted in the original thread about having access to 62gr 5.56 frangible but only 2 people got in contact with me. Maybe next time I'll just have it on hand versus ordering it specifically for the Vickers HD class.

[Titleist]

I got within a month of class and just had to pull the trigger. I found a good deal, but next year getting a group order together seems like a solid idea.

[Heavy Metal]

I got the Barnes 55 gr frang projectiles and rolled my own.

So far I could not be more pleased, my load has worked 100% and is far more than acurate enough for use at limited ranges.

In fact, some purchased loaded ammo with the same bullet and had beaucoup problems.

My magic sauce was just 23gr of H-335 as recommended by the tech at Barnes(he said 22-24gr, I split the diff). You had to cut the powder charge due to the long-ass length of these bullets.

The only downside is the super-square base made loading in a friend's Dillion 550 a real PITA! I crushed several case necks, did salvage the bullets though.

[30 cal slut]

USTC/BW definitely seems to have scaled back their support functions in the last two years...but I also don't see every range full anymore and the place busting at the seams with customers like it used to so that's to be expected.

If the facility was still a cash cow they wouldn't have sold it...

By coordinating here on the forums or with Grey Group CS, usually loaner armor hasn't been a problem for anyone. Don't let that stop you, we'll figure something out.

Defense and related spending is falling due to budgetary pressures and winding down of Iraq and possibly A-stan. This is going to affect federal training budgets.

With the housing bust and lousy economy, state and municipal budgets are under pressure. Many states derive their revenue from state income taxes and most municipalities derive their revenue from property taxes. With unemployment still high relative to the pre-bust years (2001-2007), incomes are down and therefore state tax revenues are down. With home prices down sharply vs. 2006 highs (and foreclosure activity), property tax revenues are down sharply. This has hurt state and municipal LE training budgets.

It's not reasonable to expect the private citizen to take up all the slack in training expenditures - so a facility like BW, which has to have huge fixed and sunk costs might be struggling under the new management.

Larry could probably save the facility by hosting a home defense class every weekend.

(I keed...)

[30 cal slut]

an ammo note:

several of us were running the silver state armory 55 gr barnes rrlp frangible round in the class and were having problems with it, namely stuck cases and blown primers indicative of excessive pressure.

ssa stated that the 8/15/11 lot was the culprit.

discussion here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92390

[d90king]

an ammo note:

several of us were running the silver state armory 55 gr barnes rrlp frangible round in the class and were having problems with it, namely stuck cases and blown primers indicative of excessive pressure.

ssa stated that the 8/15/11 lot was the culprit.

discussion here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92390

Keep us posted Slut. SSA has always been GTG and I believe they will make it right like I told you at the class.

[30 cal slut]

Keep us posted Slut. SSA has always been GTG and I believe they will make it right like I told you at the class.

Patrick, thanks, I will follow up with the manufacturer.