NEW Federal Hydra-Shok Deep

[Uni-Vibe]

WTM75 is right.

All these penetration-and-expansion tests have little to do with what happens when bullets hit bodies.

Shootings of people are few; there are no controls; they encompass too many variables; they are poorly reported even by medical examiners and CSU detectives. We will never have a theory, either predictive or explanatory, of human gunshot wounds.

In default, we rely on anecdotes, "common sense," and how cool bullets look. Silvertips were awesome until Hydra Shok came along, then they were ineffective crap-ola. Hydra Shok ruled the streets, until SXT came out; then Hydra Shok was no better than FMJ and SXT was God. Now we have a flock of bullets that look like some kind of screwdriver tips, and bullets that are complex machines that open up like windmill blades, and bullets that separate into "trochars," and who knows where it will all end?

And no one can demonstrate that any of these are better than FMJ in autos, and lead semi wadcutters in revolvers.

[WS6]

WTM75 is right.

All these penetration-and-expansion tests have little to do with what happens when bullets hit bodies.

Shootings of people are few; there are no controls; they encompass too many variables; they are poorly reported even by medical examiners and CSU detectives. We will never have a theory, either predictive or explanatory, of human gunshot wounds.

In default, we rely on anecdotes, "common sense," and how cool bullets look. Silvertips were awesome until Hydra Shok came along, then they were ineffective crap-ola. Hydra Shok ruled the streets, until SXT came out; then Hydra Shok was no better than FMJ and SXT was God. Now we have a flock of bullets that look like some kind of screwdriver tips, and bullets that are complex machines that open up like windmill blades, and bullets that separate into "trochars," and who knows where it will all end?

And no one can demonstrate that any of these are better than FMJ in autos, and lead semi wadcutters in revolvers.

As compared to what? Usually it's FMJ and whatever the PD issues, though. Shootings happen daily where I'm from.

[vicious_cb]

WTM75 is right.

All these penetration-and-expansion tests have little to do with what happens when bullets hit bodies.

Shootings of people are few; there are no controls; they encompass too many variables; they are poorly reported even by medical examiners and CSU detectives. We will never have a theory, either predictive or explanatory, of human gunshot wounds.

In default, we rely on anecdotes, "common sense," and how cool bullets look. Silvertips were awesome until Hydra Shok came along, then they were ineffective crap-ola. Hydra Shok ruled the streets, until SXT came out; then Hydra Shok was no better than FMJ and SXT was God. Now we have a flock of bullets that look like some kind of screwdriver tips, and bullets that are complex machines that open up like windmill blades, and bullets that separate into "trochars," and who knows where it will all end?

And no one can demonstrate that any of these are better than FMJ in autos, and lead semi wadcutters in revolvers.

Wat?

The whole point of modern wound ballistics is that the bullets we pull out of people resemble the bullets we pull out of gel.

If Im reading this correctly, it seems that you complaining that technology moves forward and as things get better the previous generation gets obsolescent...thats like saying we might as well be carborators instead of fuel injected engines because who knows where technology will go in the future.

[wtm75]

Can you provide a reputable source demontrating fmj performs better through common barriers.

It's not that they perform better through barriers. It's that they don't expand to a stop after going through a barrier so they still penetrate deeper than a hollow point would.

Most hollow points have a specific velocity envelope that causes the hollow point to expand and still penetrate a certain amount of distance. So if a hollow point gets slowed down by going through a wooden barrier for example, it's slow down, exit the barrier, enter the body, expand if it's still in the velocity envelope that'll allow it to expand but it'll penetrate less than it did when tested in gel with no barrier.

Another example is if the hollow point goes through an arm first, it'll start the expansion process in the arm, exit the arm partially expanded or fully expanded and then enter the chest partially or fully expanded. That round isn't going to penetrate the same distance as it would have if it penetrated the chest first.

Now add distance to the shot and not 10 ft like the standard when testing the hollow point and the penetration is even less due to less velocity because of the distance.

A FMJ or a Hard Cast bullet doesn't need to expand so after it goes through a barrier and slows down, it'll still penetrate deep enough to reach vitals.

[vicious_cb]

It's not that they perform better through barriers. It's that they don't expand to a stop after going through a barrier so they still penetrate deeper than a hollow point would.

Most hollow points have a specific velocity envelope that causes the hollow point to expand and still penetrate a certain amount of distance. So if a hollow point gets slowed down by going through a wooden barrier for example, it's slow down, exit the barrier, enter the body, expand if it's still in the velocity envelope that'll allow it to expand but it'll penetrate less than it did when tested in gel with no barrier.


Another example is if the hollow point goes through an arm first, it'll start the expansion process in the arm, exit the arm partially expanded or fully expanded and then enter the chest partially or fully expanded. That round isn't going to penetrate the same distance as it would have if it penetrated the chest first.



Now add distance to the shot and not 10 ft like the standard when testing the hollow point and the penetration is even less due to less velocity because of the distance.

A FMJ or a Hard Cast bullet doesn't need to expand so after it goes through a barrier and slows down, it'll still penetrate deep enough to reach vitals.

Your understanding of bullet expansion is completely the opposite of what happens, if bullet gets clogged by barrier material or gets slowed down below its velocity window it expands LESS not more, when you get less expansion you get MORE penetration. Basically if your HP fails by clogging up or dropping below its expansion thrash-hold you end up with FMJ performance anyway. So at worse you get FMJ performance when your HP fails so Im not seeing why anyone would chose an FMJ since an HPs failure = equals FMJ penetration.

FYI the 12" min already takes into account passing through an arm. The distance in penetrating a right shoulder to the heart in your avg anatomical figure is, what a surprise, 12". These numbers dont come from no where. And remember that just an MINIMUM as in we like to see more.

[wtm75]

Your understanding of bullet expansion is completely the opposite of what happens, if bullet gets clogged by barrier material or gets slowed down below its velocity window it expands LESS not more. Basically if your HP fails by clogging up or dropping below its expansion thrash-hold you end up with FMJ like performance. So at worse you get FMJ performance when your HP fails so Im not seeing how using an FMJ would be advantageous.

FYI the 12" min already takes into account passing through an arm. The distance in penetrating a right shoulder to the heart in your avg anatomical figure is, what a surprise, 12". These numbers dont come from no where. And remember that just an MINIMUM as in we like to see more.

It depends on the barrier. Some materials produce clogging and some don't. Some softer barriers start the expansion process.

As far as the 12 inch minimum, did you see the Winchester Silvertip video above? It was 11.25 and it failed in that particular situation in Miami. It went through an arm and into the chest and fell just short of the heart. And that shot wasn't from the right side where it would have to travel further to reach the heart if you read the report. And 12 inches in gel isn't the same as 12 inches in a body. To calibrate gel, a BB has to penetrate 3 to 4 inches in gel. That same BB will not penetrate 3 to 4 inches in a body. It'll barely break the skin. Experts say that human skin accounts to about 4 inches in gel.

For me, I know for a fact that a hard cast bullet or a solid copper penetrator bullet will have no issues in reaching vitals as long as they stay straight. A FMJ might as well if it stays straight but it could deflect on a different path or a hollow point can expand and stop just short of the vital.

I prefer the sure thing. Round nosed FMJ's and flat pointed bullets had no penetration issues in the past.

I don't concern myself with expansion since my concern is stopping a target rather than slightly more blood loss to die later. To stop a target, the bullet has to reach vitals.

[MegademiC]

It depends on the barrier. Some materials produce clogging and some don't. Some softer barriers start the expansion process.

As far as the 12 inch minimum, did you see the Winchester Silvertip video above? It was 11.25 and it failed in that particular situation in Miami. It went through an arm and into the chest and fell just short of the heart. And that shot wasn't from the right side where it would have to travel further to reach the heart if you read the report. And 12 inches in gel isn't the same as 12 inches in a body. To calibrate gel, a BB has to penetrate 3 to 4 inches in gel. That same BB will not penetrate 3 to 4 inches in a body. It'll barely break the skin. Experts say that human skin accounts to about 4 inches in gel.

For me, I know for a fact that a hard cast bullet or a solid copper penetrator bullet will have no issues in reaching vitals as long as they stay straight. A FMJ might as well if it stays straight but it could deflect on a different path or a hollow point can expand and stop just short of the vital.

I prefer the sure thing. Round nosed FMJ's and flat pointed bullets had no penetration issues in the past.

I don't concern myself with expansion since my concern is stopping a target rather than slightly more blood loss to die later. To stop a target, the bullet has to reach vitals.

Ok, so can you provide evidence that fmj performs better than 147 hst or gold dot in an fbi autoglass test? How about the sheet metal test? Im not advocating for 115 gr silver tip.

Btw, sim test is not 10% ordinance gel. There is more to the fbi test than bare gel testing and 4ld.

[Arik]

We're comparing 1986 ammo technology to 2018?

What happens when we take a sub compact handgun and 124gr Gold Dot. Something a little more modern? How about almost 16 inches of penetration

https://youtu.be/G_lY5oDTEOs



HST 124g 15.5 inches

https://youtu.be/XYVvxYxKKkI

[wtm75]

Ok, so can you provide evidence that fmj performs better than 147 hst or gold dot in an fbi autoglass test? How about the sheet metal test? Im not advocating for 115 gr silver tip.

Btw, sim test is not 10% ordinance gel. There is more to the fbi test than bare gel testing and 4ld.

What evidence is there to provide? A fmj does 20 to 30 inches in gel in most cases if it doesn't delfect and a flat nosed hard cast does 30 to 40 inches compared to a hollow point that does 12 to 16 on average.

Correct. Sim test is not ballistic gel but it's very close and when the same calibrated Sim test is used, you can measure one bullet against another. The Speer Gold Dot did 12.25 while the Silvertip did 11.25.

[wtm75]

We're comparing 1986 ammo technology to 2018?

What happens when we take a sub compact handgun and 124gr Gold Dot. Something a little more modern? How about almost 16 inches of penetration

https://youtu.be/G_lY5oDTEOs



HST 124g 15.5 inches

https://youtu.be/XYVvxYxKKkI

16 isn't enough in all cases. That's my point. In most cases yes but not in all. If for example you have to take a shot at 25 yards and it goes through a barrier, it isn't going to penetrate 16 inches with the velocity loss like it did when tested at 10 ft.

Whether you should take a shot at 25 yards is another matter but I'd rather have that capability if a pistol was my only weapon and a home depot truck was mowing down a crowd.