Pocket Guns: Please School Me

[WillBrink]

I just don't get it and yet I get it.

The truth about hollowpoints is that none of them do what we would like to do. They get clogged with cloth, they just plain don't open and they sail through like a ball round.

So I get wanting to find the best round, I just don't think it is a hollowpoint any more.I don't think Bill Wilson spent a but ton of money buying Leighi if he didn't really think it was the future of handgun ammo. I have come to believe these rounds truly substantially better than hollowpoints.

But for years we were forced to carry really hot ball ammo and we shot a lot of terrorist out of this world with it. When we went to hollopoints, we didn't see a difference in performance other than less through and through rounds. When you shoot as much as we did and the face is the target, I don't care if you put 3 ball rounds through the bad guys head or 3 hollowpoints, dead is dead.

If I were forced to carry a .380 I would not want a hollowpoint but the hardest cast fastest round I could get so I could touch stuff that mattered.

But what you all learned the old fashioned way was, pistol rnds in all the common loads are poor man stoppers, period. The "best" of them are still lacking, and that means the rest, like .380 etc, are just slightly better than throwing rocks.

[yoni]

Your anecdotal information is always so on point with what I know to be true from the data, I tend to believe your stories are true. It's hard to believe one dude had occasion to shoot as many people as you claim, but either you're telling the truth or you've done an incredible amount of research.

I think the generation just older than me did even more shooting. When you had the first Lebanon war as your first war, then 2 intifadas, countless anti terror operations and finally civil wars in Africa, it tends to keep one busy. But I think the greatest bit of knowledge came from a project where I went out an interviewed every single civilian for 18 months that had been in a shooting with terrorist. I even went to see the reports from the Medical Examiner when possible.

I read everything I could get my hands on about the old west "gunfighter", talked to old guys that had trained under Fairbairn in the British military in WW2.

I have shot people that is true, a lot of people in both American and Israeli Special ops have a lot of people. I know from conversations with American friends of mine during the GWOT, they were very busy.

[yoni]

But what you all learned the old fashioned way was, pistol rnds in all the common loads are poor man stoppers, period. The "best" of them are still lacking, and that means the rest, like .380 etc, are just slightly better than throwing rocks.

Which is why I now believe the Leighi Defense type round is the wave of the future. I predict in 20 years we will see these rounds in the vast majority of holsters in the USA. We might also see a rebirth of the 357 sig, as in this caliber these rounds hit the peak performance. Which I find very interesting, as back in the day the 357 mag was considered to be the peak of performance at that time.

[Ron3]

My favorite pocket gun, and I've had many, is the Beretta 21A .25 acp. 8+1.

If discretion is the mission and a .32, .380, or snub revolver is still too big it won't get carried either.

I give honorable mention to the Keltec P32 but I found you have to choose ammo carefully as it occasionally fails to ignite a primer. Try to use Federal primers / ammo. FMJ of course. The shape of that little gun plus the long trigger makes it harder to get hits like I can with the Beretta.

I stay in practice with the Beretta and when I carry it normally have a belt pouch with 2 8-rd spare mags. I practice reloading it quickly, too. I think of it as a knife with some range capability. The fixed barrel means contact shots won't push it out of battery. Being so small means it's going to be tough to remove it from my hand. At 15 yds I will rarely miss a pie plate. It's an accurate gun. Too bad the sights are so small.

I understand what the .25 can't do but I know what it can as well.

What I carry the most currently is an HK P30SK with the 68 gr Lehigh ammo from Underwood.

[AndyLate]

We sure moved off from pocket guns quickly.

No reasonably priced 9mm or 38 Spl matches the size and weight of the LCP or similar. A G43 and 642 are similar in size - 1" longer, .25" taller, and .25-.5" thicker than the LCP. A G43 is just shy of twice the weight of an LCP, a 642 is 4~5 oz heavier.

All are much smaller and lighter than a G19, but those fractions of an inch and ounces matter when you are sticking a gun in your pocket.

9x19 is the minimum caliber for a service pistol. Its a sliding scale of suck from there. A 380 sucks less than a .25 ACP, more than a .38 Spl, but they all suck. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes the only choices are a little gun, no gun, or stay home.

Andy

[okie]

My favorite pocket gun, and I've had many, is the Beretta 21A .25 acp. 8+1.

If discretion is the mission and a .32, .380, or snub revolver is still too big it won't get carried either.

I give honorable mention to the Keltec P32 but I found you have to choose ammo carefully as it occasionally fails to ignite a primer. Try to use Federal primers / ammo. FMJ of course. The shape of that little gun plus the long trigger makes it harder to get hits like I can with the Beretta.

I stay in practice with the Beretta and when I carry it normally have a belt pouch with 2 8-rd spare mags. I practice reloading it quickly, too. I think of it as a knife with some range capability. The fixed barrel means contact shots won't push it out of battery. Being so small means it's going to be tough to remove it from my hand. At 15 yds I will rarely miss a pie plate. It's an accurate gun. Too bad the sights are so small.

I understand what the .25 can't do but I know what it can as well.

What I carry the most currently is an HK P30SK with the 68 gr Lehigh ammo from Underwood.

That is a constant issue for .32 ACP owners. There's not that many choices to begin with, especially for ball. I ended up going with Fiocchi. It's full power, and the reviews are consistently very good for it. The only major shortcoming is I don't believe the primers are sealed, so if it's exposed to moisture you have to shoot it up and replace it. It's very affordable, though, so you can use it as your range ammo, as well.

[okie]

We sure moved off from pocket guns quickly.

No reasonably priced 9mm or 38 Spl matches the size and weight of the LCP or similar. A G43 and 642 are similar in size - 1" longer, .25" taller, and .25-.5" thicker than the LCP. A G43 is just shy of twice the weight of an LCP, a 642 is 4~5 oz heavier.

All are much smaller and lighter than a G19, but those fractions of an inch and ounces matter when you are sticking a gun in your pocket.

9x19 is the minimum caliber for a service pistol. Its a sliding scale of suck from there. A 380 sucks less than a .25 ACP, more than a .38 Spl, but they all suck. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes the only choices are a little gun, no gun, or stay home.

Andy

I have G42, G43, G19, (had) LCP, and P32. The P32 is in an entirely different league in terms of concealability, vs. even the G42. The LCP is very close size wise, but the increased weight of the .380 really limits what you can do with it (e.g. it will pull down your gym shorts). My personal finding, with my own personal wardrobe, is that if you can carry a G42 you can most likely carry a G43 just as easily, and there's a high probability you could also carry a G19 if you were properly motivated. I personally don't see a reason for the 42's continued existence now that the 43 is out. The 43 is extremely pleasant to shoot, and with the pinky lip mag extension you can make some pretty decent hits and follow ups.

I also carried an ultralight J frame .38 snubbie for about 5 years. They're very comfortable for IWB in the back, but they hurt to shoot and have about the same ballistics as .380 ACP. Not that the LCP is fun to shoot, mind you, but at least it doesn't draw blood like my J frame did, and it's far more concealable because of how much thinner it is. Shootability wise, I would say they're about the same (limited to very close range).

[titsonritz]

I also carried an ultralight J frame .38 snubbie for about 5 years. They're very comfortable for IWB in the back, <snip>

If you are referring to SOB (small of back) carry, that is just about the lamest way to carry a gun. It is not nearly a concealable as people think it is, it is slow and very telegraphic to present, it can be easily pinned and made inaccessible with the potential of a crippling spinal injury should things hands on and/or to the ground.

On a side note regarding LW J frame .38 snubbies, I would suggest steering clear of the Ti-Lite series and sticking with the standard aluminum models as the Ti models recoil severely to the point of possibly pulling bullets and locking up the action.

[okie]

If you are referring to SOB (small of back) carry, that is just about the lamest way to carry a gun. It is not nearly a concealable as people think it is, it is slow and very telegraphic to present, it can be easily pinned and made inaccessible with the potential of a crippling spinal injury should things hands on and/or to the ground.

On a side note regarding LW J frame .38 snubbies, I would suggest steering clear of the Ti-Lite series and sticking with the standard aluminum models as the Ti models recoil severely to the point of possibly pulling bullets and locking up the action.

Small of the back is the most comfortable way for me to carry a revolver, due to the girth of the cylinder. But yea, it's slow to the draw.

Moot point though because there's just really no reason to ever carry one, except perhaps for the operating simplicity for a new shooter or for someone who couldn't physically manipulate a semi auto. They are just terrible, though. All the anemia of .380 with all the pain of a full house .357 and then some. Easily the most rightfully despised gun I've ever owned.

[Mr_Happy1]

They are just terrible, though. All the anemia of .380 with all the pain of a full house .357 and then some. Easily the most rightfully despised gun I've ever owned.

okie,

You have a way with words my friend! 😆