Self Defense Ammunition question

[1168]

Yes, bullets deflect downward when shooting in. Think of it like a lens, and hold their face. The degree to which that occurs can only be divined with tea leaves after sacrificing a horse or three goats. Just kidding; its more predictable than that, but varies a bit with ammo. I’ve seen projectiles that frag and may or may not hit the target, I’ve seen projectiles that deflect predictably, and I’ve seen projectiles somehow travel straight and arrive mostly as advertised. Also, if its worth shooting into a vehicle, its likely worth doing a good bit of that. If doing this at close range, I’d infinitely prefer to be aside the vehicle, and preferably outside its turning radius in reverse.

Shooting out of a vehicle through glass should be avoided at nearly all costs, due to a cloud of glass dust for your eyes and lungs, deafness, not being able to see through your windshield, ft/lbs of Crown Vic, legal reasons etc. Maybe the idiots driving around in N95s, gloves, and face shields were doing it right.

For the scenarios already discussed (shooting through arms outstretched holding a pistol, general use, vehicles), I’d choose a bonded soft point as my first choice, preferably above 60gr. Fusion MSR is good stuff, as is Gold Dot 75. There’s also a Winchester or Nosler one, but I can’t remember which.

M855a1 is good stuff for these scenarios if you legally have access to it.

I’m surprised no on has mentioned 70TSX yet. Barnes sells a load of it that is near identical to the Brown Tip ammo. My zeros with that, 69gr match, and Fusion MSR 62 are all close enough together for their intended purposes. For OTM match ammo, I wouldn’t consider anything less than 75gr, unless its for …. match purposes.

Sure, M193 works, but it’d be close to the bottom of my list if I have the choice for a few reasons. Same with M855.

[titsonritz]

Dr. Gary Roberts quoting Dr. Martin Fackler on M193

5.56 mm 55 gr M193 Terminal Performance Thoughts

[Wake27]

Dr. Gary Roberts quoting Dr. Martin Fackler on M193

5.56 mm 55 gr M193 Terminal Performance Thoughts

Gud nuf.


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[T2C]

I think before selecting a defensive cartridge, you may want to ask yourself some questions.

What is the environment that you are most likely to find yourself in a defensive situation? You will most likely be at home with interior walls being a concern? Will your attacker likely being wearing armor or not?

Will you most likely find yourself outdoors with natural barriers? What will be the range of your most likely distance of engagement? 50 yard to 100 yards or inside 50 feet?

Are you in a profession where you will most likely have to shoot into or out of vehicles? Will you need a projectile that will penetrate an auto windshield or a door pillar?

What barrel length will you be using? A pistol? A 16" carbine? Do you have access to military grade ammunition if you select a 77g projectile? Will your choice of weapon push the 77g projectile at the same velocity as military personnel who have successfully used the round in their service weapon?

Firearm projectiles are unpredictable. A Crime Scene Technician responded to a local hospital where a suicidal subject was taken for treatment. The subject pressed the muzzle of a Sig Sauer P220 against his head and shot himself with a 230g FMJ round. The projectile penetrated the skin, but not the skull. The projectile followed the skull to the other side of his head where the doctor made an incision and recovered the projectile from just under the skin. He had a hell of a headache, but was otherwise fine.

Whatever .223 or 5.56mm ammunition you pick, train to placed multiple rounds on your violent attacker.

[ABNAK]

If shooting laminated glass, AP does best, followed by barrier blind, then monolithics. M855 does not perform noticeably better than M193.

Bullets deflect up when shooting out of a vehicle's front windshield; they deflect down when shooting into the front windshield. How much deflection depends on the angle of impact. Realistically, shooting out a vehicle sucks, due to the fact that the deflection can be massive, due to the fact that it happens at the very beginning of the bullet's flight, and thus impacts the trajectory significantly, hence why folks strongly recommend simply creating a big enough hole to shoot out of without the bullet impacting the windshield at all. On the flip side, shooting into a vehicle through the front isn't such a big deal, since the deflection occurs only at the very end of the trajectory, and thus has much less of an impact on the overall change in POA/POI.

Whew, I was reading this thread and saw that "aim low from outside" comment someone posted and thought it ran counter what I've been told. Not dogging the poster at all but IIRC you shoot a "little" high from outside a windshield. Kinda like the uphill and downhill thing (hold low, correct?)

[markm]

IIRC you shoot a "little" high from outside a windshield.

I think I might have been confusing the hold with leading an approaching vehicle in the context of vehicle born IED.

[ABNAK]

I think before selecting a defensive cartridge, you may want to ask yourself some questions.

What is the environment that you are most likely to find yourself in a defensive situation? You will most likely be at home with interior walls being a concern? Will your attacker likely being wearing armor or not?

Will you most likely find yourself outdoors with natural barriers? What will be the range of your most likely distance of engagement? 50 yard to 100 yards or inside 50 feet?

Are you in a profession where you will most likely have to shoot into or out of vehicles? Will you need a projectile that will penetrate an auto windshield or a door pillar?

What barrel length will you be using? A pistol? A 16" carbine? Do you have access to military grade ammunition if you select a 77g projectile? Will your choice of weapon push the 77g projectile at the same velocity as military personnel who have successfully used the round in their service weapon?

Agreed. I like to think of the "if you had to pick ONE round for all situations" scenario. You want barrier penetration (but not needing to shoot through a M1 Abrams) and you want good terminal ballistics. I wouldn't pick a 55gr anything for that role.

Probably a 62gr+ bonded or penetrating load. M855A1 comes to mind but is expensive as hell if you can find it; MK318 is similar in performance specs (yet not the bullet makeup itself) and would be a valid substitute. The 62gr TBBC 5.56mm pressure "FBI load" would be another but it isn't a tack-driver. The 62gr BH 5.56mm TSX offering is yet another. From what I've read 64/62gr Gold Dots, although .223 pressures, are pretty good. Can't forget the 5.56mm 70gr TSX (or Hornady's GMX version) that 1168 mentioned, in 5.56 pressure and requiring a large checkbook!

I have quite a bit of IMI Razor 77gr ammo but it's not in my "grab-and-go" mags. For home defense I rely on handguns, maybe a 12 gauge, unless I see a situation developing where a long-gun might be needed....but it's always there for the grabbin' if necessary!

I spent a good deal of $$$ over the last 7 or 8 years (during the "salad days") buying good ammo, a little at a time. Plain old M855 and M193 are for zeroing and practicing with what I have. I would hate to have to stock up on large amounts of premium ammo these days.

[One More Time]

Good ammo for a decent price is pretty hard to find.
I seen some 855a1 on a local forum for $3.50 ea, had to pass.

I did stock up on some Mk318 mod1 when it was about $.70 a round, haven't seen any more since then.
I've been moving away from buying 193 for practice and stocking up on 855 instead.
My last order it was cheaper than the 193 I've been getting.

[1168]

. From what I've read 64/62gr Gold Dots, although .223 pressures, are pretty good.

I believe the 62gr Gold Dot and Fusion is the same projectile. Regular Fusion, with a deer on the box, is loaded lightly, like Gold Dot. Fusion MSR, with an AR on the box, is marked .223, but is closer to the upper limit, where there is overlap with 5.56. It also has sealant, like Gold Dot. Don’t let the velocities listed on the boxes confuse you; they are taken at different barrel lengths.

[One More Time]

From poking around on youtube, the MSR had 2868 fps from a 16" barrel.
M855 was 2920 from a 16"

Not much on SGD 62 gr but the listed 3,000 fps must have been with a 20" barrel.