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Senior Member
Especially not when technology has the ability to bring sermons to each person's house.Originally Posted by Heavyweight
Those wanting to continue having services in church buildings are motivated, IMHO, by one of two things:
Ignorance of the threat posed by having people in close proximity
Greed because they are going to lose that collection plate at the end of the service
Experience is a cruel teacher, gives the exam first and then the lesson.
Member
I'm not perfect or have the answers for everything Biblical. But when Jesus went into the wilderness after he was baptized, he went through the temptations from the devil for the 40 days and nights. In Matthew Chapter 4 Verse 5, Jesus was taken to the top of the temple and the devil said that if he was the Son of God, to cast himself down and the angels would save him if he was who he said he was. Jesus's reply in Verse 7 is what people should go by. "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
Meaning these days? Use your brain and don't put yourself in situations where the outcome is obvious.
While I do believe the Lord will protect you, that doesn't mean you won't face trials and tribulations or even give your life up here on earth. The Bible does say that believers will face those trials and tribulations.... but don't expect God to catch you if you throw yourself off a roof and lay you down like a feather.
Member
I'm certainly not a lawyer, but wondering if the courts would employ "clear and present danger" standards in the interpretation and enforcement of religious gatherings, or any large public gatherings, during this time?
With respect to the First amendment, Holmes argues in Schenck vs. United States: "The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree." Our constitution does protect freedom of religion, but one still cannot yell fire in a crowded church either.
Now much of the former was about intent to cause harm and the often cited "falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater", but would this be extensible to States stepping in to prevent harm through knowledge of the potential danger of virus transmission and the ensuing health outcomes (potentially a [temporal] reinterpretation of unlawful assembly)?
Member
That is exactly how I feel. I’ve got 27 COVID19 cases in my ICU. Next week I’ll be out of room. We have to act.
Site Sponsor
I have not read the Christian Bible in a long time, but I seem to remember that Jesus taught us to be humble, put others before ourselves, and be reasonably respectful of the government. He also had a great bit of disdain for wealth and for commercial operations occurring in the temple.
Perhaps, maybe, plausibly, this pastor loves Jesus so much, and is concerned that he will be unable to help you and I love Jesus over the internet and telephone. Or, maybe, perhaps, megachurches are businesses, and the good pastor relies on a physical congregation for his income and livelihood. Maybe, he expects that the tax-exempt status makes this business model somehow unique from a bar.
Weren’t we talking trash on Muslims doing dumb stuff that promotes disease in the name of their religion a few pages back?
RLTW
“What’s New” button, but without GD: https://www.m4carbine.net/search.php...new&exclude=60 , courtesy of ST911.
Disclosure: I am affiliated PRN with a tactical training center, but I speak only for myself. I have no idea what we sell, other than CLP and training. I receive no income from sale of hard goods.
Member
Yeap, Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto the Lord what is the Lords.... in the end, it is all the Lords. No disdain for money itself, but for the love of money. A lot of good things get done with money. Look at what Billy Graham did during his lifetime. There are many others like him too. Visa versa too... the Clintons....
IMHO, a good pastor would tell his congregation to respect the law and to also look after and love one another. You don't have to go to church to do all of these things. As a Christian, you do your best to live as God wants us to in all places and at all times and situations.
One of the first things Jesus did when he entered Jerusalem was to go to the Temple. They were basically using it like a flea market. He threw tables and tossed people out of it. He said that the Temple was a house of prayer, but they had made it a den of thieves.
Last edited by teufelhund1918; 04-01-20 at 11:13.
Senior Member
I think we all knew this but now seems to actually be reported on.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...elligence-says
China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths it’s suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials.
The officials asked not to be identified because the report is secret and declined to detail its contents. But the thrust, they said, is that China’s public reporting on cases and deaths is intentionally incomplete. Two of the officials said the report concludes that China’s numbers are fake.
Whiskey
May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one
Senior Member
There was a study which has many eerie similarities to 9/11 shortly prior. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_Virgo Say what you will about conspiracy theories, but at what point is it no longer a long list of coincidences but a planned event?
Ukraine is sending an AN224 full of salo.
I am part of that power which eternally wills evil, and eternally works good.
Senior Member
Look, bud, we're Americans here and we want our pork in either bacon or BBQ flavor.
The vodka could double as an internal sanitizer though...
Experience is a cruel teacher, gives the exam first and then the lesson.
Member
Alpha-17 laid it out very nicely. Permitting a simple presidential declaration of emergency does not, according to what is written in our Constitution, trump the Constitution. Allowing an emergency declaration is certainly expedient and efficient, but incurs the risk of tramping on our civil liberties. Modern lawyers and judges may drum up arguments in an attempt to justify such actions, but again, if we have true natural rights, they can't be taken away by fiat.
With respect to the wisdom of megachurches holding services, that's actually not really in question. Of course they shouldn't, that's a really bad decision, and would increase virus spread risk. Yes, people can worship in other ways should they choose. The fundamental legal question is should it be suddenly illegal for them to meet? If you think it should be illegal for them to meet, then why are so many other non-church activities still occurring? Like primary elections? Someone clearly made a decision and said that voting rights in this instance are more important than stopping viral spread. And if you say, sure, it's because it's an "emergency," then who draws the line of what an emergency is? Could a president decide that if he can't get Congress on board, he'll just declare the situation an emergency and just build the wall? Could we have an intelligence emergency and decide that we will wire tap every single email and phone call in CONUS? Perhaps we actually have a gun violence emergency, and "I've got a pen and phone" could take away what we thought were rights protected by the 2nd?
These are just a few very recent examples of exactly what we are talking about, highlighting the challenge of dangerous liberty which often is in conflict with government authority, and is sometimes in conflict with population safety. Today these challenges for our nation are not just academic, but are very real as we struggle with fighting this wretched virus.
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