Indeed. I practice the most with J-frame revolvers, because they require the most practice to be proficient.
One of the things I work on a lot, is the “load two, shoot two” drill.
We were the state Academy, so when the boss allowed us to do that he was risking some degree of alienation from a few agency heads. By that time, however, there were very few revolver shooters left.
For me, if the primary is a revolver (k-frame or larger), it is on the belt. It is reloaded from speed loaders. They are faster than speed strips. I will dump rounds on the ground if I top off. For a back up (j-frame) I don’t plan to reload. They are hard to reload, slow to deploy and are last ditch for me.
One thing I would add, if you are going to get instruction on speed loading get it from a LE instructor perspective. JM and many other competitors are wicked fast but their techniques are not the ‘I will be sure, always’ techniques needed for SD.
JM
Could you please be more specific? I am always willing to learn one more thing about pistolcraft.
In my case I’m large framed. J frame revolvers don’t fit my hand and I’m prone to dress around the gun I’m wearing. I carry a revolver on occasion and it’s a 4" Mountain Gun in .44 Mag. I carry a speedloader in a pouch in front of the holster and a speed strip on a pouch behind the holster. If I’m wearing a cover garment there is an extra speedloader weighting down the strong side of the jacket or vest in the handwarmer pocket. Eighteen extra rounds is six more than I carried for several years when I first started in Law Enforcement (there were extra speed loaders in my vehicle back then). If I expend more than half of the six rounds in the gun I plan on using a speed loader to totally recharge ASAP. If I fire one or two and no threat is imminent or if I dispatch an animal for some reason I plan (and practice) easing the ejector star up and flicking the expended cartridges out of the chambers with the edge of a speed strip. Then using the speed strip to top off those chambers. It’s amusing how younger shooters seem to think the revolver takes forever to reload. When I used to fire the off duty course with my co-workers I was usually waiting for the semi auto guys to catch up. :dance3:
I’m not sure about 26 Inf’s statement about JM but he is using a speed rig usually with moon clips in open pouches and not something you’d carry everyday in his videos. I’m sure Mr. Miculek would be quite competent if forced to use a gun in self defense and I believe he goes back to when the revolver was king. I wonder what he carries?
My problem has been finding the Winchester Platinum Point load I usually carry in the .44, now I need to find some equivalent.
My (somewhat useless and mostly obsolete) thoughts:
Firstly, Elmer Keith. His EDC was earlier a 4" 44 Special N-frame and later one of the first .44 Magnums, usually stoked with his smoldering-hot 44 Special handloads. Far as I know he never carried any sort of speed loaders. For handguns, his main adage was if you need to shoot twice, you’re not carrying enough gun. The corollary was if you were going to carry a gun, you should carry the biggest gun you could handle; he had almost no use for what were then called “pocket” automatics and revolvers. There’s a neat story about him stopping a bank robbery in DC during an early trip to NRA HQ and how it eventually led to him being a deputy sheriff just so he could carry his "Magnum .44 Special " when he traveled.
Secondly, my EDC is the 1905 Smith and Wesson 32-20 posted elsewhere. We have a sort of ConCarry here in TN; you don’t need a permit to have a loaded gun in your car. I have a zip strip with six extra shells. All 12 are 115gr lead flat points with a fairly large flat surface on the nose.
For reloading, simplifying the thing is always best. Shoot dry, then reload. A good friend is a peace officer, and he told me the one time he discharged his handgun in the line of duty he has no specific memory of having done it. Remembers the whole incident, just not the actual sighting and trigger manipulation. Bill Jordan’s recollection of finding his empties in his shirt pocket bears mention, too. Given all the psychological things that happen in that small deadly space, reason demands that any way we can DECREASE the amount of activity requiring fine motor skills (i.e. shoot gun dry then reload vice fishing selected empties out of a cylinder) is going to bring value.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FbUMqoyjDw This is a pretty traditional and fundamentally sound way to reload. On the slow-mo notice how JM’s hand is coming away before the rounds are really even nose into the cylinder. That is great for competition but not very tactically sound, what I was refering to as ‘I will be sure, always.’ (As I type this I’m shaking my head - me picking apart JM’s technique -LOL) Also note he is using moon clips not speedloaders.
Other speed techniques with speed loaders involved using dade’s or safariland’s - pushing the button and at the same time closing the cylinder. If the cylinder is clean the rounds drop in before the cylinder closes thus preventing them from hanging up on the left case head shield.
What I was primarily referring to is the one hand technique which is pictured and talked about in the thrid photo/box down. http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK5/miculek5.html
Myself and another LE firearms instructor spent about a half-hour in the LGS the other day hoorahing a former Bianchi Cup winner about his use of this technique - ‘Wah? How else you going to load it?’ (All good fun until it comes time to have him work on your gun and you pay for the laughs at youe expense LOL).
LoL! I had to rewatch a couple JM videos. He does lob that reload in like a hand grenade. I use the Safariland speedloader and you have to press it against the extractor star to release but the benefit is the rounds are injected in the chambers. Closing the cylinder wipes the empty loader off the gun as 26 Inf describes.
Great thread. I’m really thinking about picking up a j-frame for the hot summer months. Nothing pocket carries better imho… I carried one for years back in the day and miss it. It’s perfect for those sweltering summer days when you want to just drop it in a pair of shorts instead of “dressing around the weapon”…
Thanks 26 Inf. I use the thumb of the support hand to eject spent brass similar to the technique JM demonstrated and use the shooting hand to insert a Comp III speed loader in competition. I do not teach this technique in a class, because I feel there is more room for error than using the strong hand technique.
I teach students to:
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Hold the revolver in the strong hand and apply pressure to the cylinder release with the right thumb on a S&W or left thumb on a Colt.
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Push the cylinder open with the two middle fingers of the support hand and trigger finger while tilting the muzzle up to approx. 12 O’clock with the butt facing the support side shoulder.
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Strike the end of the ejector rod with the meaty area on the support hand where the knife edge and palm meet. The knife edge of the left hand slides alongside the barrel and the trigger finger maintains pressure on the cylinder while doing this.
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Shift the revolver to the support hand with the two middle fingers pushed through the frame and holding the cylinder open and lowering it to belt level while reaching for a speed loader or speed strip with the strong hand. The muzzle is tilted down between 4 and 6 O’clock,
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Rotate the cylinder slightly with the support hand thumb and middle fingers while the strong hand guides the speed loader or speed strip to the cylinder. (There are different techniques for manipulating the loading device depending on type, HKS or Safariland speed loader or Speed Strip.)
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Close the cylinder with the support hand thumb while the strong hand acquires a firing grip.
This takes more time, but as you pointed out the primary concern is reliable ejection and reloading.
I’ve played with moon clips on a borrowed revolver and could cut my reload time down considerably if the clips were positioned on a belt carrier like JM was wearing in the video. Stored in a pocket, I don’t have a significant advantage over a good speed loader and I am not going to wear a rig like JM was wearing for concealed carry.
For anyone considering a moon clip conversion on their revolver, Tom Kilhoffer does nice work. http://www.tkcustom.com/content/contact_us.asp
I have used /taught the support hand thumb and the support hand palm to work the ejector in the past. For the last decade or so I’ve been opening the cylinder with support hand fingers while rotating the muzzle to 12:00, my strong hand releases the revolver and obtains the speedloader. I then hammer the ejector with the heel of my strong hand while holding the speedloader, rotate the muzzle back down and insert the cartridges. Safariland loader “clicks!”, I release it and close the cylinder while obtaining a firing grip.
Back in the day some .357 ammo was pretty sticky and I’ve been known to use the speedloader (HKS back then) to pound on the extractor. Those first L frames with Remington 125gr JHP ammo could be frustrating. For some reason my various .44 Mag and .45 Colt revolvers don’t seem to suffer from this.
Only real difficulty I could see with rapid reload on a 45LC DA revolver is the vestigial case rim can jump the extractor star. This was enough of an issue to make Frankford Arsenal redesign the 1909 45 case for the Colt New Service with a slightly larger diameter rim. I don’t know of any 1909 spec 45 Colt brass currently manufactured.
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My preference, esp for Js/LCR/etc-
Good stuff ST911. I typically use the technique similar to what Massad Ayoob teaches, but I use the knife edge of the left hand to strike the end of the ejector rod to avoid damaging a part of the hand that would affect grip strength.
The technique Mr. de Bethencourt teaches would be a great one to teach someone starting with revolver shooting. I would have to carry speed loaders on the opposite side of my body than where I carry them during competition, so I use a different technique to maintain some consistency.
I started rotating the cylinder slightly 30 + years ago to aid in clearing the left grip while inserting cartridges. I learned through trial and error and do not know if anyone else teaches the technique.
Michael de Bethancourt is a solid dude, and a great revolver trainer and shooter. It has been my pleasure to have him as a guest in my home, and learn from him on the range.
As if he needed any more validation, I was at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference this weekend, and his name came up repeatedly. Chuck Haggard, who is definitely no slouch with a wheelgun, also recommends him highly.
In the above video, deBethancourt includes a motion to remove the (hopefully empty) speedloader.
The loader -should- simply wipe off once the cartridges drop home into the chambers. The cartridges can bind in the loader if things are off axis. If you actively pull the loader away from the cylinder, it can fail to deliver its full contents to the cylinder correctly. We had a guy who would grab the body of the loader (Safariland) to sort of toss it clear as he finished the reload. More than once he wound up with a mostly full cylinder after a reload because one cartridge came away with the loader. Embarrassing on the range but it could have been worse in other circumstances.
I like that. Practice makes perfect though. I see the challenges others are stating as concerns.
When nobody is there to provide cover fire for you, your gun is empty and the threat still exists, it’s a bad situation.
Finding cover, concealment, or at least move is what you need to do while performing an emergency reload.
Having to reload a revolver makes this much harder. (and more likely) A second gun really is preferable to reloading a revolver during a threat.
I’ve been working on this and that is the conclusion I’ve come to. I found my other pocket gun, a Beretta Jetfire .25, is faster and more consistent to reload than my revolvers. (plus 8+1)
I don’t think I’m going forward with dual revolver carry. At least one gun needs to be faster to reload. I wonder how many folks carry spare mags for their pocket pistol? (another thread)
Good point Ron3. Back in the days when revolvers reigned people would carry at least one back up revolver in an ankle holster, sometimes one on each ankle.
I typically carry one firearm when carrying concealed to protect myself and family and train accordingly. It may not be the best practice, but most people I know do not carry two. I am a firm believer in carrying an edged weapon that can be accessed with the non-firing hand.
My last BG38 was worn close to the point of being unserviceable, so I sold it. The wife won’t let me have the Model 60, so I’ll have to wait until the replacement BG38 arrives to practice Mr. de Bethencourt’s technique with a small revolver. I’ll take a few hundred rounds to the range and see how I perform the technique on the timer and shake out the best place to carry a speed loader or speed strip. Perhaps a road trip is in order to take Mr. de Bethencourt’s course.