Gun & Caliber for 1st Bolt Gun?

[hbrogers]

Well, several months later and I still haven't bought my first bolt gun, but I have decided on getting something in 6.5CM. Now determining which manufacturer and barrel length is the hard part. So I've read a little and have been thinking about two different routes to take and hope everyone will give me their opinions and reasons to support their opinions. Excuse any gun/caliber ignorance in this post; I'm trying to learn.

Option 1 - cheap, compact, and used mostly for hunting
Howa 6.5CM MultiCam 22" standard barrel or 24" heavy barrel cut to 18" and threaded for an ASR muzzle brake for my SiCo Hybrid
- I figured this would be fine to hunt with within 100-200 yards and target out to 400. Am I way off base here?
- I'll be able to use ammo boost 5 or 10 round magazine, which would be handy I suppose.
- Which barrel profile would you chose and why? And are there any problems to be expected with cutting the barrel that short?

Option 2 - expensive, light, fairly compact, used for long range and hunting purposes
Q "The Fix" 6.5CM 20" barrel and thread it for the ASR muzzle break
- Not available yet and is a hell of a lot more expensive than the Howa.
- Appears to be lighter than the Howa, but am concerned about being first to try out new design/concept, especially when it is so expensive.
- Ability to use PMAG magazines

[okie john]

I’d go with the Howa—aside from a few working prototypes, the Fix doesn’t actually exist yet, and it could take them years to iron out a completely new action system.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is a good choice for deer-sized game well beyond 200 yards, but I’m not yet convinced that it’s a better choice for a first bolt gun than the 308. At the ranges you list, the difference between them are minimal at best, and trajectory-compensating scopes (like the Leupold CDS) largely erase what differences do exist.

The 308 also has a much lower total cost of ownership. To get good at long-range shooting, you need to shoot a lot, and good 308 ammo is cheaper than comparable 6.5 Creed ammo. Then there’s the issue of logistics: if you travel to hunt, then you’ll soon realize that airlines manage to “lose” bags belonging to hunters a lot more often than they lose other people’s bags, so the ability to buy good 308 ammo in far more places than good 6.5 Creed ammo is a BIG deal.


Okie John

[hbrogers]

Makes sense about them (Q) taking time to get a new action system ironed out.

I've thought about getting a .308, but when I was looking at ammo prices, it seemed pretty comparable to 6.5CM ammo. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places. Also, considering recoil and it's impact on shooting, I figured the 6.5CM might be better to learn on. What are you're thoughts about recoil with a suppressor and how sound suppression varies between the two? The SiCo Hybrid will be the suppressor used on the gun.

Won't need to travel (fly) to hunt either; I'll either be hunting on the land I own in Middle TN or hunting on friends' land in MS.

[hbrogers]

Okie, I meant to ask what you thought about barrel length for .308 and 6.5CM. I want the rifle to be as light as compact as I can get it without having a negative impact on shooting.

[okie john]

Makes sense about them (Q) taking time to get a new action system ironed out.

I've thought about getting a .308, but when I was looking at ammo prices, it seemed pretty comparable to 6.5CM ammo. Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places. Also, considering recoil and it's impact on shooting, I figured the 6.5CM might be better to learn on. What are you're thoughts about recoil with a suppressor and how sound suppression varies between the two? The SiCo Hybrid will be the suppressor used on the gun.

Won't need to travel (fly) to hunt either; I'll either be hunting on the land I own in Middle TN or hunting on friends' land in MS.

Check ammoseek.com for ammo prices. The cheapest 6.5 Creed is $0.89/shot for decent softpoint hunting ammo. 6.5 Creed match ammo is more like $1.01 per shot for a 1,000-round case. Hirtenberger surplus 308 is just under $0.50/shot, while the cheapest 308 I see that’s not complete junk is $0.70/shot. 308 match ammo is more like $0.80/shot.

The cheapest Howa I could find (gunwatcher.com) in 6.5 Creed was right at $500, and the cheapest Howa in 308 was just over $400, so that’s another $100 in favor of the 308.

Here's how that works out over the long run: looking just at match ammo, the difference between 308 and 6.5 Creed is $200 per 1k rounds, which means that 2,500 rounds of 6.5 Creed ammo costs the same as 2,500 rounds of 308 ammo AND the rifle. In other words, if you choose a 308 over a 6.5 Creed and shoot 2,500 rounds through it (which is just about enough to get good at long range) then the rifle is free. The percentages are about the same for non-match ammo.

I have no idea about noise suppression or recoil with a suppressor.


Okie John

[okie john]

Okie, I meant to ask what you thought about barrel length for .308 and 6.5CM. I want the rifle to be as light as compact as I can get it without having a negative impact on shooting.

I'm a big fan of bolt guns with 22" barrels. Shorter barrels are fashionable these days, but I find the additional muzzle blast is a drag. As for weight, I like a rifle that's no more than 8 pounds ready to hunt, so that 8 pounds has to include your sling, scope, rings, bases, and a full magazine of ammo. I'd go to 7 pounds in a 308 or 6.5, but anything lighter than that gets harder to hit with faster than it gets easier to carry. Some folks think that's too heavy, but I disagree. I'm 55 years old and the day that humping an 8-pound rifle chasing deer or elk kicks my ass is the day I need to be in the gym instead of in the woods.


Okie John

[okie john]

Duplicate post.

[sandsunsurf]

If you're going to shoot suppressed, go with a short barrel. I'm about to pull the trigger on either a Howa or Bergara in 6.5CM, and either way, I'll cut the barrel to 16.5" and have it threaded for a can. The 6.5 will have less recoil than the .308. Although muzzle blast does increase with a shorter barrel, that becomes a non issue if you are shooting suppressed and the shorter overall length will be an easier rifle to carry and shoot. There are a couple of articles on barrel length with 6.5cm and 17" or 16" (depending on load) are where the velocity loss per inch is still low.

[1859sharps]

couple of thoughts.

Americans are still suspicious of the 6.5 when it comes to hunting, so I would do some reading on what size game is being taken in the EU with it using 6.5 rounds comparable with the 6.5 creedmore. They have been hunting with 6.5s for a very long time over there.

308 and recoil. felt recoil is largely subjective. The amount of discomfort you feel from recoil has a lot to do with did you mount the rifle correctly. mount a rifle correctly, felt recoil is not unpleasant. learned this shooting steyr scouts.

do you know anyone who owns a comparable rifle to what you are leaning towards? if so, schedule a trip to the range and shoot it. shoot from the bench, prone, sitting, and as many other field positions that you can.

6.5 is all the rage right now, and there is no denying it offers some advantages over 308...but do those advantages really matter when shooting under 600 yards. for what it worth I personally do not think so.

If you are going to use this rifle for hunting and informal target shooting at ranges of 1000 yards or less, I would encourage going with a 308. There are a lot more hunting bullet options out there and a good scope with a 20 moa mount will help more than compensate for 308's drop at 1000 or less.

If you are looking to do any kind of formal competition, you will need to give thought to two rifles. one to hunt with, one to shoot competitions with. the two activities have different needs, what makes a good hunting rifle doesn't make a good competition rifle or vis versa.

[tpe187]

Your original post stated this was mostly for hunting with some longer range practice. Based on that, I would absolutely go with a .308 for my first rifle and especially for a mostly hunting setup. .308s are best with barrel lengths of 20-22". What 6.5 CM has going for it over other 6.5s is factory loaded ammo. It is designed for PRS shooters going after paper and steel in competition. It uses long bullets with high sectional density/better ballistic coefficient so stays supersonic to longer distances. Since it shoots "flatter" it is more tolerant of range estimation errors. It works in short actions and recoil is fairly light, making spotting your own hits/misses easier - again a plus for competition. Yes, many Europeans use 6.5mm cartridges, but their game is fairly thin skinned and smaller calibers are acceptable. Most recommend 24" min for 6.5 CM and most competition shooters are going with 26". That will be a pain in the ass with a suppressor. If you think you will use the Suppressor a lot, I would recommend one of the factory setups with a 20" threaded barrel. The Ruger American is a decent low budget rifle to have fun with for a while. For upgradable systems, look at the Tikka T3s or go with a good old Remington 700. Many aftermarket options for going to a detachable magazine system or upgrading the stock. Also many more smiths familiar with the system if you decide to accurize or change calibers down the road. Good luck with your choice.