View Full Version : Appendix Carry
(continued from another unrelated thread ... )
For the past few weeks I've been playing around with appendix carry. It's been a significant change for me after carrying an IWB at the 4 o'clock position for almost a decade.
I am far from an encyclopedia of knowledge on the issue nor have I run into every one of the myriad possible environments and situations that one could face while carrying. Six months from now I may be carrying regular IWB again. But I have found some significant advantages to it so far:
Concealability ... I do not need an open-front garment. That alone increases my wardrobe choices as well as my ability to blend in during all weather conditions. Unless I do a back stretch, the gun doesn't print. I can bend over, reach up high for something, even twist my torso without my clothing tightening around the gun. And when it does print a bit, it looks like a cell phone, etc. I've asked quite a few folks if they could tell where I was carrying (most of them know me and knew that I was carrying somewhere) and not a single one had noticed that I'd switched to appendix carry.
Speed ... My presentations from the holster are faster than they were with an open front cover garment, and much faster than they were when I tried to use an untucked closed-front shirt with 4 o'clock carry. This is especially true when sitting in the car or similar positions.
One-handed draws ... My strong hand only draw is a bit slower; my weak hand only draw is much faster, I can do it more subtly without the need for acrobatics, and I can do it in more positions.
One-handed manipulations ... The holster body serves as a very convenient and easy to reach bucket for holding the gun while performing one-handed reloads; it provides an extremely hard and positive location for racking the slide during stoppages or holding the gun if more drastic one-handed remedial action is required.
Retention ... it's very easy to get a hand on the gun in the holster and provide retention. Simply leaning forward provides improved protection for the gun.
Sleight of hand ... the gun is much closer at hand during normal everyday activity (including hands in pants pocket) and is more in line with where my hands are during a lot of defensive/reaction moves.
(there is also a bit of bandwagon effect ... every time I turn around, another one of my BTDT or TNDI friends is adopting appendix carry and singing its praises)
The negatives:
Physique ... my Buddha Belly compromises concealability. Appendix carry is most ideally suited for the kind of narcissistic triathletes who find their ways into top tier operational units. But even with my size 38 waistband I can conceal pretty well with an untucked polo.
Holster selection ... there aren't many appendix holsters on the market. The ones that exist are mostly crap. Many of them use a reverse cant, which is not ideal in my limited experience or, more importantly, the experience of the guys who've been carrying this way in non-permissive environments for a long time.
Reloads ... while my draw is faster, my reloads have really suffered. I'm still working out the kinks with my technique. Lifting a shirt up over a mag pouch one-handed is just a lot slower than sliding inside a vest. I've found that leaning hard to the gun side helps, but it's not a 100% solution (and there are times when a hard lean to the right might not be feasible).
It's pointing at WHAT? ... yeah, it is. I'd be lying if I said it never bothers me anymore. I am much slower back to the holster now and have stolen a particular technique, more like a process, for putting the gun in the holster each time to minimize the chance of eunuchating myself. With a gun with a positive manual safety (a la 1911) it wouldn't bother me, nor a DAO/TDA gun with an external hammer that I could trap as I holster. But a SFA gun is just sort of, well, a test of self-confidence. And/or luck.
Do I think it's a better mousetrap? Yeah. The best choice for everyone? No. The best choice for me? Ask me again in six months. (let's hope I don't answer in falsetto)
PRGGodfather
08-12-08, 18:52
LOL
Yeah, it works. Definitely not for everyone, though.
Consistency is a good thing...
From the pics in his AAR thread, looks like an M&P full size 9/40.
Yes, it's my M&P9 test pistol.
I'm about 6' and 210#, far from tall or skinny.
What are your thoughts on comfort, especially from the seated/driving postion? I've toyed around with packing a snubby and a 6906 this way years ago and found it quite uncomfortable, though concealabilty was great. Just curious. I'm always looking for something new for my bag-o-tricks.
I have been Running an ACR from Raven for about 4 months now Im 6'5 300 with food blisters.
the adjustments of the ACR make it work well for me but better for several of my thin friends..
i think its an ideal carry for those with out a so called frame.. mainly thin to petite female shooters can hide these in for fitting clothes and some others
as for seated and driving yes it works wel,l and gets the gun up out of the seat belt allowing a good grip.
it is fast into operation from appendix am i faster yet than my regualr IWB no but thats a traning issue more than anything else
What are your thoughts on comfort, especially from the seated/driving postion? I've toyed around with packing a snubby and a 6906 this way years ago and found it quite uncomfortable, though concealabilty was great. Just curious. I'm always looking for something new for my bag-o-tricks.
Give it a try, what is uncomfortable for me maybe different for you.
What are your thoughts on comfort, especially from the seated/driving postion? I've toyed around with packing a snubby and a 6906 this way years ago and found it quite uncomfortable, though concealabilty was great. Just curious.
The answers to the "driving" and "general comfort" questions will be the same: I bet it was the holster that made it uncomfortable.
Guys, this is exactly like IWB. Plenty of people try IWB and say it's uncomfortable because they get poorly designed or poorly manufactured holsters. But an appendix holster is even more particular. Extremely small differences in cant, angle from the body, ride height, and shape have drastic consequences on comfort and functionality.
One friend of mine has been carrying this way for many years and has designed a couple of different appendix holsters. He took the time to explain a lot of these things to me before I started. Even with all that advice, it took three tries to get it right. Good appendix holsters are hard to come by, as evidenced by the number of people who make reverse-cant styles.
Are you using the Looper by Custom Carry Concepts? straight drop I assume?
Sam -- It is a straight drop Looper, but it has a few other modifications based on testing. And please note it's in the experimental stage, so I'm certainly not claiming this is the best appendix holster ever! or anything like that.
Looper
Straight cant
Adjusted ride height
Adjusted angle to body
Leather "heat shield"
edited to add: Modified holster body contour
I'll take some pics and post them later.
Nathan_Bell
08-13-08, 09:27
Having seen him do a few presentations this weekend, I was impressed wit the speed of the draw and the concealment of that rig.
Met Todd in the hotel parking lot, assumed he was carrying, but could not spot it. And he did a buddha ;) trot down to his car to get my my hat and his movements did not seem hampered by having a pistol pointing at his package.
Which is my primary concern with that type of rig. IMHO it is not one to play with unless you are a very competent gun handler. Too many ways to remove yourself from the gene pool if you do not take care with your draw AND your holstering motion. If you are the type that gets in a hurry on the draw and sticks your finger on the trigger too soon, not going to be blowing holes in the dirt if you f#@& up. If you do not do a scan and check properly before holstering, and try to get it holstered before you pull your finger out of the trigger guard (muffled bang--whimper) just might happen.
I am not confident enough in my skills to try that type of carry with a striker fired pistol just yet, but having seen the success Todd has had so far, I might some day try it.
I am not confident enough in my skills to try that type of carry with a striker fired pistol just yet, but having seen the success Todd has had so far, I might some day try it.
Yeah. The draw is one thing. Reholstering might be a little risky under stress. :eek:
I've been carrying in the appendix location for a couple of years now. It works very well for me. I actually used it in the late 80's but finding a good holster proved challenging so I went back to 4 o'clock carry for long time.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/7116P7270168_Large_.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/7116P7270170_Large_.JPG
IMHO, it has a lot more pros than cons if it works with your body shape and you use the right holster.
I'm looking forward to giving Raven's new Appedix Carry holster a try.
The draw stroke is not an issue if have have the fundementals down. I personally believe that reholstering should always be done in a slow deliberate manner. IMHO, there's no logical reason for a speed reholster. Having a holster in the appendix position makes it easier to reholster while verifying that nothing is in the holster that could possibly trip the trigger.
As far a driving and comfort goes I've worn this setup up to 16 hours and eve driven 8 hours without issue. The comfort issue really comes down to how you are physically built. I have a short stocky build from lifitng weighta but my waist is about 12" smaller than my chest so appendix carry works really well for me.
Dave Williams
08-13-08, 10:53
I believe I was present at what was the begining of the A-IWB popularity in the trainiing community, the National Tactical Invitational.
A gent from an alphabet agency was shooting from A-IWB (Sig P228) from a PCS Holster A-IBW rig and wowed everyone with his speed from closed front concealment. I mean this guy was scary fast. BTW this guy had BTDT. Great guy also, very personable and willing to share info on techniques etc.
Paul Gomez took notice of this and began experimenting and writing about it over on TPI, in fact there is a thread that talks about this gent. A-IWB really took off with others after Paul started writing about it.
A-IWB's huge advantages over traditional carry methods IMO are:
1.increase in draw speed
2.sneakiness of draw
3.availability of draw in odd body positions/seated/belted in in a car - this didn't dawn on me until I had a chance to do some ground fighting drills with a guy well versed in A-IWB and groundfighting - A-IWB is SO MUCH BETTER in this situation than traditional carry. All tools for self defense are more accessable from this position.
I use A-IWB carry frequently and I use a Safariland 27 for my G22:
http://www.safariland.com/img_pop.aspx?pid=27
This holster uses the Safarilaminate created by Bill Rogers, so it's comfortable against your skin. It has adustable cant J-Hook and a tension screw. It has a kydex lined holster mouth so the holster stays open for reholstering one handed. I mentioned it has a J Hook so it will fit different sized belts and it is easy on/easy off, something I like in a holster. I've never had it become dislodged unintentionally from my belt even during groundfighting drills. It's concealable, I've been out with real gun savvy friends and they never knew it was there. It is actually available for purchase, for many different models of guns, and you can call and order one today and get it in a short amount of time and it is inexpensive. This holster also works great for standard IWB carry. And it is available for the M&P.
Dave Williams
I
I use A-IWB carry frequently and I use a Safariland 27 for my G22:
I really like safariland's concealment holsters. They are such a good value. I might get a model 27 myself.
What angle would you reckon you have the holster canted to?
Dave Williams
08-13-08, 11:57
I have it verticle but it'll be personal preference which is the beauty of the adjustable cant.
Dave Williams
A gent from an alphabet agency was shooting from A-IWB (Sig P228) from a PCS Holster A-IBW rig and wowed everyone with his speed from closed front concealment.
. . . and . . .
One friend of mine has been carrying this way for many years and has designed a couple of different appendix holsters. He took the time to explain a lot of these things to me before I started.
... are the same guy. :cool:
Dave Williams
08-13-08, 12:36
Please tell him I said hello, though I doubt he would remember me.
Dave Williams
[QUOTE=ToddG;204005
Retention ... it's very easy to get a hand on the gun in the holster and provide retention. Simply leaning forward provides improved protection for the gun.
Re. retention
Do you have any issues with a close opponent tying you up (blocking your access to the gun) as might happen with a crossdraw. Do you wear it at 1:00, 1:30, 2:00?
Any issues with people hugging you and detecting the gun?
Gringop
Failure2Stop
08-13-08, 15:51
Any issues with people hugging you and detecting the gun?
And how many people are hugging you in a day that you don't trust enough to let know that you carry? :p
You must have a great job!
Anyway-
Todd-
Any idea on holsters that are conducive to appendix carry, even if not necessarily perfect? So far the only named recommendation is the Safariland 27 by D. Williams.
Jay Cunningham
08-13-08, 15:54
I have no personal experience with them but RCS recently came out with an appendix carry line:
http://www.themalabarfront.com/images/DSCF1131.JPG
http://www.themalabarfront.com/index.php?cPath=82_112
Any idea on holsters that are conducive to appendix carry, even if not necessarily perfect? So far the only named recommendation is the Safariland 27 by D. Williams.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=731
I found this expensive piece of kydex. :mad:
Magic Sauce
08-13-08, 16:23
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=731
I found this expensive piece of kydex. :mad:
$92 for that?! :eek:
:confused:
$92 for that?! :eek:
:confused:
That was pretty much my thought. I'll take the $40 safariland rig which is probably a more durable holster too.
I find this interesting seeing this thread after trying this out this spring. I liked it for the most part with a shrouded snub, kept it in a thin pocket holster with the butt hooked over the pants/shorts belt line. Can't hardly get much more minimalist and maintain trigger cover. Started just throwing a P3AT in my swim trunks when the heat got up a bit more but really miss the firepower and think I'm gonna get a shrouded airweight so I can go back to a 38/357. I can't really imagine my XDSC or 1911 working there but sometimes things like that surprise you, especially looking at that raven holster makes me think the xd would be a piece of cake, not for the swim trunks, but regular dress shorts.
I have an EHUD and RCS ACR rig the ACR is far ahead of the EHUD..
Yes I'm A RCS fan.:D
Robb Jensen
08-13-08, 20:02
And how many people are hugging you in a day that you don't trust enough to let know that you carry? :p
You must have a great job!
Anyway-
Todd-
Any idea on holsters that are conducive to appendix carry, even if not necessarily perfect? So far the only named recommendation is the Safariland 27 by D. Williams.
J,
Check out the Galco Scout IWB. I have one for a G19, I'm too fat to carry it that way but it's a straight cant and works well for appendix carry.
PRGGodfather
08-13-08, 20:10
Comp-Tac has a dedicated holster for appendix carry, too:
http://www.comp-tac.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=89
Can't speak to using it, since I am not a personal fan of the appendix carry -- but in a pinch, it's all good!
Do you have any issues with a close opponent tying you up (blocking your access to the gun) as might happen with a crossdraw. Do you wear it at 1:00, 1:30, 2:00?
I'd say I carry it somewhere between 1:00 and 1:30.
The gun doesn't seem any more susceptible to interference than traditional IWB ... just "interfered with" from different angles.
Any issues with people hugging you and detecting the gun?
I don't hug. But who bumps bellies when they hug, anyway?
Any idea on holsters that are conducive to appendix carry, even if not necessarily perfect?
I'm happy with the modified Looper so far. They're under $50 without the heat shield.
... but damn is it uncomfortable using the MTAC holster I used in the 4 O'clock position.
A holster with a traditional IWB cant will be uncomfortable. I've got no experience with the MTAC, but if it can be adjusted for no cant it could work better.
Comp-Tac has a dedicated holster for appendix carry, too:
I had one for a P229R a while back ... I wasn't impressed with the design. It held the gun at an angle resulting in lots of printing, the belt loop's placement makes it difficult to locate the holster where I want, and I'm not willing to use a holster that relies on J-hooks or kydex clips.
I like appendix carry, but cannot carry a full sized government model or a doublestack comfortably. A P9 or J is good to go though. One thing no one has touched on is how common it is for people in crowds, like bars, to bump into you. Yet the one side of you they most rarely bump is the front. I have switched almost exclusively to appendix carry in environments like that when possible.
To my knowledge, in the 3 years I have been carrying regularly the only person that has ever caught me carrying, that did not know I was carrying, was a girl I know who hugged me in a bar. She reached low, which I normally do to keep their hands away from my gun. Nothing came of it. I am in the habit of hugging my lady friends.:p Appendix holsters would be a problem with the lady friends (full body hugs) but not with family.
The protrusion at the bottom of the front clip could poke you in all the wrong places. If I use that rig, I would cut that part off.
which they recommend to do once you have your postion locked in
also you can order it with a shortened strut as well...
the galco scout iwb,i tired it didnt offer me enough firing grip to draw with
I have often carried a J-frame at 1 oclock (IWB-A), and a larger handgun at 4 oclock (IWB).
The J frame, being small and short, is easily concealed and fast to access from IWB-A. It's well suited for those times when the incident is fast evolving, up close and personal. It's also very comfortable to carry the J frame IWB-A, whereas other handguns are not.
The larger handgun is better concealed and more comfortable at 4 oclock, but it's there if I need to make a longer shot, or run the J frame dry (NY reload).
Where does the muzzle point in a seated position if you're carrying appendix?
I can't notionalize any good way for this to work. Inboard would be pointing at Mr. C&B or your femoral atery. :confused:
Where does the muzzle point in a seated position if you're carrying appendix?
I can't notionalize any good way for this to work. Inboard would be pointing at Mr. C&B or your femoral atery. :confused:
The last item on Mr. Green's list:
It's pointing at WHAT? ... yeah, it is. I'd be lying if I said it never bothers me anymore. I am much slower back to the holster now and have stolen a particular technique, more like a process, for putting the gun in the holster each time to minimize the chance of eunuchating myself. With a gun with a positive manual safety (a la 1911) it wouldn't bother me, nor a DAO/TDA gun with an external hammer that I could trap as I holster. But a SFA gun is just sort of, well, a test of self-confidence. And/or luck.
I like appendix carry, but cannot carry a full sized government model or a doublestack comfortably.
Unless body shape & size is a serious limiting factor, my guess is that's more of a holster issue than a gun issue. A good friend of mine who is about 5' 4" can carry a SIG P229 appendix all day long. He is in great physical shape, though, except for being a midget.
One thing no one has touched on is how common it is for people in crowds, like bars, to bump into you. Yet the one side of you they most rarely bump is the front.
That's a really good point, and one I'll add to my list of "whys" ... thanks!
the galco scout iwb,i tired it didnt offer me enough firing grip to draw with
There's definitely a trick to getting just the right ride height.
The larger handgun is better concealed and more comfortable at 4 oclock ...
When you say "more concealed" do you mean with the same clothing or with clothing more appropriate to 4:00 carry (i.e., open front)? My wardrobe is much less noticeably "ccw-ish" with A-IWB. But if I wear something too tight, with my build (6', 210#, 38" waist) it definitely prints. Of course, if I tried carrying at 4:00 with that same shirt as my only concealment garment, it would print even more. And a big object on the hip looks more like a gun than a bump at the appendix.
I can't notionalize any good way for this to work. Inboard would be pointing at Mr. C&B or your femoral atery. :confused:
Dude, you are exactly right. If you are worried your pistol might spontaneously discharge, definitely do not carry A-IWB. Ernest and I were at lunch a couple weeks ago and we both made that exact comment ... if our M&Ps just "let go" for some crazy reason, we'd probably bleed out before help could arrive. I wonder what the headline would have been ...
I practiced drawing and holstering really slowly dry-fire for about a week before I tried it live. My primary issue was that I absolutely wanted to be absolutely sure that I absolutely didn't have my finger on or near the trigger unless the gun is horizontal.
So the muzzle would go inboard when seated... Ok. I'll have to try this later. I'm just thinking it'd be uncomfortable sitting.
demi -- Comfort varies a lot from holster to holster. Much like normal IWB, a good holster can actually make it more comfortable than no holster at all ...
fireftrjef
08-14-08, 10:09
I once carried a Sig P239 DA/SA in this position for at least 3 years or so, then I started carrying an HK P2000 this way...which I still do. :)
I have an average build, and I find this position offers me the best concealment. I especially like it when eating at restaurants (sitting down, getting up), shopping - where I may have to bend down to get something or look at something on a lower shelf...because it doesn't print.
I notice too it offers better access sitting in a vehicle.
I do feel more comfortable carrying this way with HK V3 TDA with exposed hammer. Carrying my Glock 19 this way makes me a little more nervous when I'm re-holstering. I guess there's just something about being able to put my thumb on the hammer and knowing the trigger isn't hanging up when I'm holstering it. That's just my experience.
HeadHunter
08-14-08, 16:59
I'm a short, almost middle age guy now Almost?
I have carried AIWB with a J-frame for over 15 years. My preferred setup is the Barami Hip-Grip with Grip Adapter and Hogue Handall. Not everyone who tries it likes the angle it holds at but it works for me.
Almost?
I'll never catch you, rest assured. :p
Todd, I can't carry the government model there because when I sit the bushing catches my nuts and I am not a happy camper. And with doublestacks, by the time I have it at 1 o'clock the butt is too far to the right to be anywhere near the curve of my abdomen. I'm very thin and have a 31" waist.
Admittedly I haven't tried a good holster yet. I've had three Alessi appendix holsters on order since, IIRC, December 2005.
Ya mean ... this guy?
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/aiwb-snag.jpg
:cool:
Who's that guy? Isn't that VA_Dinger? :D
I should have known someone would have preserved that moment... Don't I even get any credit for running most of that class appendix, from concealment? :p
believeraz
08-14-08, 23:27
Who's that guy? Isn't that VA_Dinger? :D
I should have known someone would have preserved that moment... Don't I even get any credit for running most of that class appendix, from concealment? :p
I think I was at that class. Dinger couldn't make it at the last minute. I remember someone carrying appendix, back before it was cool. :D
believeraz
08-14-08, 23:37
Dude, you are exactly right. If you are worried your pistol might spontaneously discharge, definitely do not carry A-IWB. Ernest and I were at lunch a couple weeks ago and we both made that exact comment ... if our M&Ps just "let go" for some crazy reason, we'd probably bleed out before help could arrive. I wonder what the headline would have been ...
TLG:
It would have read "Firearms Instructor Dead from Lack of Planning". :D
BP
Thread Hijack/not directed at Todd:
I firmly believe that if anyone carries a gun on a daily basis, and do not have a blowout kit/first aid kit handy that includes a trauma dressing, chest seal, tourniquet and clotting agent (Traumadex, Quickclot, or similar) you are wrong. It should be in each car and in the home. Likewise, if a shooter has not learned how to use these things, but spend countless thousands on ammo, gear and training, their priorities are out of order.
Just sayin'...the life you save could be your own, or that of a loved one you were carrying to protect in the first place.
End Hijack.
I should have known someone would have preserved that moment... Don't I even get any credit for running most of that class appendix, from concealment? :p
My recollection -- poor as it may be for something that happened more than two years ago -- is that you were wowing everyone with your draw during the class. The twenty or so shots I happened to capture of that one draw doesn't tell the true story. Ah, the power of photojournalism!
TLG:
It would have read "Firearms Instructor Dead from Lack of Planning". :D
Much better than what I was thinking. "Two Men Die in Genital Suicide Pact"
Nathan_Bell
08-15-08, 09:45
My recollection -- poor as it may be for something that happened more than two years ago -- is that you were wowing everyone with your draw during the class. The twenty or so shots I happened to capture of that one draw doesn't tell the true story. Ah, the power of photojournalism!
Much better than what I was thinking. "Two Men Die in Genital Suicide Pact"
That is classic.
On topic. How does the Looper work for you at a desk? I spend way too many hours a day slightly leaning forward typing and reading from a screen.
On topic. How does the Looper work for you at a desk? I spend way too many hours a day slightly leaning forward typing and reading from a screen.
I don't notice it any more than other times. I drive in a pretty upright position, too, and it hasn't bothered me on long drives.
AIWB definitely doesn't print as much as 4:00, so AIWB allows a wider range of garments to be worn.
Carrying two pistols (J frame @ AIWB, 1911 or G19 @ 4:00), I have to dress to conceal the bigger pistol.
[QUOTE=ToddG;204701]
When you say "more concealed" do you mean with the same clothing or with clothing more appropriate to 4:00 carry (i.e., open front)? My wardrobe is much less noticeably "ccw-ish" with A-IWB. But if I wear something too tight, with my build (6', 210#, 38" waist) it definitely prints. Of course, if I tried carrying at 4:00 with that same shirt as my only concealment garment, it would print even more. And a big object on the hip looks more like a gun than a bump at the appendix.
Fast, yes. Not as fast as Jim Zubiana in Miami Vice, but faster than producing the weapon from other conventional carrying location.
I didn't catch this reference my first pass thru this thread. But it's funny. That episode is what crossed my mind as I had been notionalizing this carry method over the last several days.
I can remember that scene as though I saw it yesterday. It was frightening how quick he drew and fired the pistol.
Spurholder
08-20-08, 15:35
It was frightening how quick he drew and fired the pistol.
You betcha...here's a LINK (http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&resnum=0&q=Jim%20Zubiena&safe=on&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#) to the scene.
Yeah. I found it on Youtube.... where someone broke it down in slow motion several times. Very cool.
Sidewinder6
08-20-08, 16:19
I am another one who harbors fear of the femoral. I purchased one of these
http://www.concealmentconcepts.com/cellpagerpal.html
It uses the natural pocket between your body and leg and conceals well. Your shirt can be tucked in. Comfortable sitting and walking around with a HK p7M8. But I found that getting the thing out was a non starter unless you wanted to distract someone as if you were playing with yourself before pulling a handgun. Im back at 3-4 oclock and butt packs.
threeheadeddog
08-20-08, 18:06
First off hi ive been a lurker for a while but i believe this is my first post.
I have been flirting with appendix carry lately as well. I am 5'11 and about 175 lbs. I have had generally good results with a Wilson Featherweight holster (sort of adjustable cant) except that the holster is designed for IWB and sits rather low. The one gripe I have is that I carry a full size 1911 in 10mm and if I sit on a hard surface or in a hard wooden chair I get a rather uncomfortable testicle squeeze. I really like this holster though and may switch to a commander (though I dont trust commanders in 10mm).
Just a little of my experience.
Appendix carry really appeals to me because it sounds like it would be easier for a slim guy like myself. But I was wondering what belt you guys run, I have a Frequent Flyer and 5 Stitch but was hoping to find more of a business casual belt.
Also, for you guys running the Comp-Tac Two O'Clock hoster how does the belt clip work for you? I don't think I'm a big fan of belt clips and would probably prefer a closed loop.
Unless you get a tuckable AIWB, the belt's appearance is a non-issue since this mode of carry requires an untucked shirt for concealment. No one will ever see the belt.
Nathan_Bell
08-23-08, 10:36
Yeah. I found it on Youtube.... where someone broke it down in slow motion several times. Very cool.
Hit The Gun Zone they have a little dissertation on that clip.
Nathan_Bell
08-23-08, 10:37
Unless you get a tuckable AIWB, the belt's appearance is a non-issue since this mode of carry requires an untucked shirt for concealment. No one will ever see the belt.
I wear a rigger's belt that is a bit oversized, does the Looper have enough room for a double run of a belt to go through it?
NB -- Not in standard configuration, but I'm certain if you tell Rich at CCC you need that capability, he can do it easily enough.
I'm always glad to see legitimate discussion about A-IWB.
I'll throw out a few comments concerning some of the things that have been brought up in this thread.
Retention...Tools carried forward of the hip points allow greater access from awkward body positions, allow faster access due to less joint articulation and less distance to desired end state and afford easier weapon retention, again due to position of the gun inboard of the hips/closer to center line.
Weapons access while seated in a vehicle was one of the driving ideas behind the aforementioned 'alphabet soup guy' initially moving towards A-IWB. It also dovetailed very nicely with his heavly McCann-influeced unarmed/knife/stick skillsets.
Another great video relative to A-IWB is the Teddy Medina/Sparrow video. I believe that Detonics has a link on their site. It's also hosted on TPI.
Paul Gomez
Fair disclosure....I teach or have taught for a number of training organizations to include OPS, Shivworks & Tac Pro. I consider myself friends with a number of other trainers to include Tom Givens, James Yeager, Claude Werner and John Farnam. I have worked with a fair number of makers and holsters on the A-IWB idea. I have no monetary incentive in promoting A-IWB. I just think it is an idea with merit. I gave an impromtu presentation on A-IWB at one of Gabe Suarez' WarriorTalk Symposia which was the prime mover behind his interest in A-IWB. Suarez brought me out to Arizona to conduct joint AK classes for a number of years. That relationship has ended.
Appendix carry really appeals to me because it sounds like it would be easier for a slim guy like myself. But I was wondering what belt you guys run, I have a Frequent Flyer and 5 Stitch but was hoping to find more of a business casual belt.
I use a Galco SB3 dress belt. Only real complaint is that the leather starts to show wear faster than I would like but for $55 I haven't found anything better.
Lagadelphia
08-23-08, 17:49
Appendix carry really appeals to me because it sounds like it would be easier for a slim guy like myself. But I was wondering what belt you guys run, I have a Frequent Flyer and 5 Stitch but was hoping to find more of a business casual belt.
Also, for you guys running the Comp-Tac Two O'Clock hoster how does the belt clip work for you? I don't think I'm a big fan of belt clips and would probably prefer a closed loop.
I have a Don Hume leather belt. It is my every day/work belt. I use the J Clip so I can't answer your other question :)
Another point to consider - A-IWB requires a reconsideration of the CCW wardrobe for some. Open front cover garments are out, and untucked shirts, fleeces, zippered jackets or pullovers are in. Also, the process of clearing the cover garment will be different. Rather than using the strong hand to sweep the cover garment back and away from the weapon, you will use the weak hand to "rip" the cover garment up and away from the weapon while using the strong hand to draw.
Appendix carry really appeals to me because it sounds like it would be easier for a slim guy like myself. But I was wondering what belt you guys run, I have a Frequent Flyer and 5 Stitch but was hoping to find more of a business casual belt.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, the belt's appearance does not matter when using an untucked cover garment and carrying A-IWB. I stick with a Wilderness 5-stitch when wearing casual dress. It's stiff enough to hold spare mags and keep my pants up with all of the other support stuff I'm carrying. (Cell phone, knives, light, mags, etc...)
For business attire, I carry in Thunderwear/Smart Carry, A-IWB, with a tucked shirt. In this case, the stiffness of the belt is not terribly important, because I'm not carrying mags on the belt, or anything else that would cause the belt to roll out from my body. Belt tension is more critical in this case, as it holds the gun in tight to the abs. I've found that a standard dress belt works just fine for this method of carry. I just tighten it enough that the weapon/mag is held securely and does not move around.
For "deep cover" carry, I have tried both Thunderwear and tuckable kydex holsters. With the kydex holsters, I haven't found anything yet that is completely unnoticeable. There always seems to be some small piece of kydex that is visible. (Full kydex loop, j-hook at the bottom of the belt, etc...) I've seen some designs that place something like a key ring at the belt line as a distraction. I suppose that might work, but I find it a bit out of place to see a keyring on the belt of someone wearing a suit. I've also seen, and used, designs that rely on velcro placed on the inside of the belt, and mated to velcro on the kydex behind the belt. It does not use a j-hook that is visible at the bottom of the belt. I find that the adhesive holding the velcro to the belt tends to allow the velcro to slide under pressure. In addition to not being a very secure arrangement, this also leaves a gluey mess on the belt and the waistband of your pants. In addition, the tuckables I have used have had a tendency to chew holes in shirts at a rapid pace. For me, Thunderwear has resolved these problems. It is NOT my preferred method of carry when I have the option of wearing an untucked cover garment, but it works very nicely when I'm in an environment that requires either business casual dress or a suit, and I don't want to go unarmed.
Rather than using the strong hand to sweep the cover garment back and away from the weapon, you will use the weak hand to "rip" the cover garment up and away from the weapon while using the strong hand to draw.
Just a general point (and something I'm sure yrac practice himself): you need to practice drawing one-handed. I was on the range a couple weeks ago with a guy who's been carrying AIWB for many years, and he looked at me like I'd grown a second nose when I started doing some SHO and WHO draws.
For business attire, I carry in Thunderwear/Smart Carry, A-IWB, with a tucked shirt.
I see a Smart Carry in my future. :mad:
Nathan_Bell
08-31-08, 11:54
Todd, have you debugged your reloads yet? If so was it just practice with what you were running or have you changed something?
I've been carrying this way for a few days now. The two problems I'm having are the lack of the ability to get a full grip in the pistol in a fast draw, and the discomfort of the muzzle end of the holster in my lower abdomen/upper pelvic area.
The draw isn't bad... I haven't had anything close to a fumble draw. It's just different than an OWB where I can get a full purchase on the pistol.
The first day I carried Appendix, I was like... NO WAY is this going to work for me. But as I get the position of the gun to where it's more comfortable, I can see that I might be able to make it work.
Jay Cunningham
08-31-08, 16:19
I am wondering if this would be a nice compliment to carry a BUG with your primary at the "usual" position?
I've been carrying this way for a few days now. The two problems I'm having are the lack of the ability to get a full grip in the pistol in a fast draw, and the discomfort of the muzzle end of the holster in my lower abdomen/upper pelvic area.
The draw isn't bad... I haven't had anything close to a fumble draw. It's just different than an OWB where I can get a full purchase on the pistol.
The first day I carried Appendix, I was like... NO WAY is this going to work for me. But as I get the position of the gun to where it's more comfortable, I can see that I might be able to make it work.
What are you carrying and what holster? I carried around my G26 in a Comp-Tac Pro Undercover and it wasn't bad...but it wasn't great either. It was just okay. My new CCC Looper (appendix carry mods) is on it's way so I'll let you know how much of a difference it makes.
I can see where the appendix carry would maybe buy a little time as it could be less likely to be taken as a draw for a pistol, as most would be bad guys associate cops drawing with the strong hand going to the rear (4:30 position). I realize it would require some extra movements, but it got me to thinking. In one of Massad Ayoob's books he recommended carrying a money clip with a $20 folded over a few $1's in his support side pocket, so that in the event of a mugging the money clip could be tossed occupying the would be robbers with enough distraction to allow him to get his hand on his weapon. They may be happy with the clip and scram, if not he is already on the go by then. If you know the poo is going to hit the fan, tossing the clip and immediately moving the shirt out of the way could be one fluid movement if practiced, then draw or pretend to reach into the pocket for $ with the support side, then flip the shirt.
Todd, have you debugged your reloads yet? If so was it just practice with what you were running or have you changed something?
They're better but not where I'd like them. I'm averaging around 1.8 seconds shot to shot right now.
I've been carrying this way for a few days now. The two problems I'm having are the lack of the ability to get a full grip in the pistol in a fast draw, and the discomfort of the muzzle end of the holster in my lower abdomen/upper pelvic area.
I'll ask the same question: what gun and what holster? If you can't get a full grip in the holster, odds are the gun is sitting too low on your belt. If the holster is poking you, either the position of the holster (between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock) or the cant is causing the problem. Do you have a no-cant or reverse-cant appendix holster?
I've been carrying this way for a few days now. The two problems I'm having are the lack of the ability to get a full grip in the pistol in a fast draw, and the discomfort of the muzzle end of the holster in my lower abdomen/upper pelvic area.
If you tried A-IWB using an IWB holster with an FBI cant, you're very likely to experience this kind of discomfort. The cant tilts the muzzle directly into your inner thigh, and it becomes VERY uncomfortable as it persistently abrades the same spot on your thigh all day long. A good A-IWB holster with a straight drop does a great deal to alleviate this kind of discomfort.
The draw isn't bad... I haven't had anything close to a fumble draw. It's just different than an OWB where I can get a full purchase on the pistol.
This is another problem when you carry A-IWB with a typical IWB holster. The butt of the gun is canted away from your hand, forcing an extreme amount of wrist articulation to establish a grip on the gun. Again, a straight drop holster helps considerably with this...
Some folks like a reverse cant when carrying A-IWB. This allows the wrist to remain nearly straight when establishing a grip on the gun. Personnally, I've found that as I apply a reverse cant (using an adjustable-cant holster), the butt of the gun drops so close to the beltline that it becomes very difficult to fit my fingers between the butt of the gun and my belt when establishing my grip. This can be counteracted by adjusting the position of carry so that the gun rides higher above the belt line, but depending on the length of the slide, you may reach a point where there is so little gun remaining tucked inside the waistband that the gun tends to roll out away from your body. Probably not the most secure arrangement. Even without the general retention concerns, this still causes the gun to print excessively from under your cover garment. Reverse cant might work for some folks, but it has not worked out well for me.
I am wondering if this would be a nice compliment to carry a BUG with your primary at the "usual" position?
I'm thinking along the same lines. I carry a j-frame in the appendix position via a barami hip grip as a BUG. I've never carried anything larger than that AIWB but I don't see anyway I could pull off carrying a full size pistol such as a G17 or 1911 AIWB, which is no problem for IWB.
AIWB may also work great for civilians or some military units, but I see issues for uniform and plainclothes LE. No one manufactures an appendix security holster for uniform use so there are familiarity issues between on duty and off. AIWB could work for plainclothes officers but I can't think of a single agency in my area that would approve a AIWB for use on duty.
AIWB may also work great for civilians or some military units, but I see issues for uniform and plainclothes LE. No one manufactures an appendix security holster for uniform use so there are familiarity issues between on duty and off. AIWB could work for plainclothes officers but I can't think of a single agency in my area that would approve a AIWB for use on duty.
Thanks Drummer. Just want to be clear that anything I've posted in this thread is based on my experience as a non-LEO. While I believe A-IWB to be superior to behind-the-hip for a number of reasons already stated in this thread, I do not have to give any consideration whatsoever to any department policies that might affect the manner in which I carry the gun.
I've carried in the appendix position for several years, for speed and concealment. I carry about 10% of the time using the excellent Blade-Tec, UCH, tuckable holster.For the other 90%, meaning most every day, I use a simple belly band. I can, and do, use a tucked shirt every day with complete confidence that my pistol will NOT be detected. Ride height adjustment is unlimited, and if appendix carry doesn't appeal to you on a particular day, you've got 360 degrees of adjustment available. I use a band that has the spare mag pouch directly in front and next to the pistols slide. When using this set-up one can conceal the pistol and spare mag as easily (and comfortably) as the gun alone.
This subject is a very personal and individual one, but the above is what works for ME. Might NOT be your preference.
Oh yeah, this set up also works GREAT if you have to drop trouser in a public restroom. (Ok, so I'm an old guy. We think about these things!)
Skip
I've used the Comp-Tac Two-O'Clock (http://www.comp-tac.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=89) with my Glock 19 for about four months, wearing it on weekends (I work in a medical clinic, so I can't carry to work.)
It's worked very well for me (5'8", 205 lbs.) even with the middle-aged spread :p
I was initially concerned about the muzzle pointed at my genital area and femoral artery - just keep your finger off the trigger while reholstering slowly.
I find this much more concealable and faster than strong-side carry, where I felt that I was printing for all the world to see, as well as having to wear an open-front cover garment. Now I just wear a Hawaiian shirt or loose T-shirt.
Thanks for the ideas here, I'm going to take a look at the other holsters mentioned above.
SORRY!! I guess I should have written what gun and holster in my previous reply. Duh!
Anyway, it's a G22 in a Safariland model 27 IWB holster. The cant is completely adjustable, but the depth into the waistband is fixed. I'd estimate that I have the cant adjusted to 10-15 degrees into the reverse cant position. Not pointing into my right thigh, but pointing inbound to the valuables.
I'm not ready to give up on this carry or anything.... I'm just feeling through it right now.
I worked on appendix carry over the weekend with my S&W 642 Snubby and a Galco Stow-n-Go holster. I anticipate appendix carry with my new M&P 9c once I find a holster and get through enough confidence rounds to start carrying it.
One issue I did have was in the car. I have the holster at 1:00 o'clock and the butt of the revolver falls right below the shoulder belt. I can shift the holster so the shoulder belt falls under the grip or shift it the other way so the belt covers more of the revolver. Neither of these in optimal in my eyes. I'm in the automotive wreck repair business so I see a lot of crashes and I really don't like have that shoulder belt close the the grip.
Does anyone have any input on this?
Thanks!
That's another good point. When I drove this way, both the shouldler and lap portions of my seatbelt completely covered up the pistol's grip. I've never had a problem drawing seat belted with a regular, good quality, strong side holster.
Mark -- give it a try with no cant in either direction.
Indy -- From a draw perspective, I haven't found the holster to be a problem. I still have a concealing garment between the gun and the seatbelt. Pull up on the concealment garment to access the gun and the seatbelt is moved out of the way.
If your concern is that the gun could get crunched into your stomach by the seatbelt or airbag in a car crash, that's too far outside my lane (pardon the pun). What are your thoughts?
Mark -- give it a try with no cant in either direction.
I'll try that.
Todd,
You are correct, my concerns are more about the crash dynamics. Having anything between your body and the safety belt is pretty much a bad thing for several reasons. Like you mention, the most obvious is the gun will be crushed into your abdomen or bone structure. It can also effect the engineered design functionality of the safety belt itself. The belt is designed to support and retain a human body without a hard polymer/metal object in between. Having been on the receiving end of a 45mph head on collision in a race car, I know how much my body moved around and stretched my belts. That was with a 6 point harness and racing seat so I know I wouldn't be so lucky in the typical seat belt. There would be a lot more movement laterally as well. My other concern was when my shoulder belt came down on the outside of the butt of the revolver. I could see the belt hooking the grip and potential un-holstering the weapon, depending on the dynamics of the crash.
I guess it could be said that if you were in a collision bad enough to cause you to be additionally injured by your firearm that you would probably have greater problems to worry about. It is like many things that we personally have to weigh all our options and make the best decision for ourself.
We cannot guarantee we won't be in an accident any more than we can guarantee we won't need our firearm for self defense.
I'm definitely not trying to discourage appendix carry. I really like appendix carry and hope that it works out for me with the new M&P. I just need to tweak it a little bit. I just wanted people to think about the crash dynamics no matter their choice of carry. There could be similar issues with the Smart Carry or Cell Pal holster with the lap belt crossing over the weapon. Look at some crash dummy footage and ask your self were your firearm would be when the dust settles.
Drive Safe and Shoot Straight! :p
Mark -- give it a try with no cant in either direction.
Indy -- From a draw perspective, I haven't found the holster to be a problem. I still have a concealing garment between the gun and the seatbelt. Pull up on the concealment garment to access the gun and the seatbelt is moved out of the way.
If your concern is that the gun could get crunched into your stomach by the seatbelt or airbag in a car crash, that's too far outside my lane (pardon the pun). What are your thoughts?
Thanks for the input, Indy!
Sidewinder6
09-02-08, 12:52
Having spent considerable time in questionable places, I carry my firearm differently inside a vehicle than I do outside of it. As nice as it seems for most to have your gun in one place, when your in a vehicle, you are going to be hindered if you need to get at it right now. The concern about visceral injury is real but your going to get those anyway. This problem is the same for our LEO friends with even more junk in their cars. Twisting and unwinding causes too much time delay since your also going to operating windows and doors.
I received my CCC Looper and mag carrier in the mail today as well. I haven't carried it yet but so far the quality seems pretty nice.
Did you order your Looper with the straight drop or FBI cant?
Carl
I received my CCC Looper and mag carrier in the mail today as well. I haven't carried it yet but so far the quality seems pretty nice.
Did you order your Looper with the straight drop or FBI cant?
Carl
I ordered mine with the straight cant.
Not to sound nannyish, but I'd seriously recommend you spend some time each day for a week or so practicing the draw and re-holster before walking around with a live gun. The draw stroke is substantially different in the beginning:
The way you get the cover garment out of the way is different.
You need to get the muzzle pointed forward as early as possible, especially if you're on the firing line with other people.
It's easy to get your finger on the trigger early if you're rushing, and that's a habit that has to be beaten out of you if necessary.
For re-holstering, I put a little clockwise twist to the gun as it's going in. This tends to point the muzzle slightly forward and would hopefully reduce the likelihood of shooting myself if something fraks up and the trigger gets pulled. (for a lefty, you'd twist it counter-clockwise)
Yojimbo............What kind of fixed blade are you carrying???? I've been thinking of a HAC, because of concealability and the capsule-handle design, BUT a good 3-4" blade might be the ticket. THANKS:)
Ok, so what is the tip on the CCC spare mag carriers? :)
Better now Todd?
theJanitor
09-03-08, 12:19
they don't make the looper for a Kahr k40. :(
Ok, so what is the tip on the tip on the CCC spare mag carriers? :)
En ingles, por favor.
fireftrjef
09-03-08, 20:36
I just ordered a Looper IWB for my Glock 19. Was I supposed to mention an appendix carry version or is this the same thing? I didn't see mention of appendix carry, I hope I oredered the right one. :confused:
I just ordered a Looper IWB for my Glock 19. Was I supposed to mention an appendix carry version or is this the same thing? I didn't see mention of appendix carry, I hope I oredered the right one. :confused:
I would place a follow-up call to make sure that you're going to get the A-IWB version.
fireftrjef
09-03-08, 20:55
Done. Just spoke with them. EXCELLENT customer service!
The regular Looper is intended for standard (4 o'clock or so) IWB carry.
If you want one for appendix carry, you need to ask for that specifically. Rich makes little changes in ride height, cant (straight vs. FBI), etc. I'm not sure if it's standard now, but the AIWB he made for me also has only one retention screw to keep the bottom of the holster as slim as possible.
fireftrjef
09-05-08, 15:47
When I spoke to him, he said that he incorporated the AIWB with the Looper if you order one with straight drop. I will see when it arrives :D
Yojimbo............What kind of fixed blade are you carrying???? I've been thinking of a HAC, because of concealability and the capsule-handle design, BUT a good 3-4" blade might be the ticket. THANKS:)
The knife is an old Cold Steel Mini-Culloden that's no longer being made. The sheath is a custom job by Infight Access Kydex.
Appendix carry with little guns is easy. When you start looking at mid- &/or full-size guns, it becomes trickier. Over the last several years, I’ve worked with a wide range of holsters trying to find the best setup for vasectomy/appendix inside the waistband carry. As a general rule, in my opinion, leather is superior to kydex as a day-in, day-out carry/fighting holster. However, the thinness and rigidity available through the use of kydex allows some things that you just can't get with leather. And the positioning of the holster mitigates some of my usual kydex concerns.
I’ve been working with a couple of the RCS ACR rigs since July and am pretty impressed. Given the difficulty that a lot of people seem to have with getting a comfortable A-IWB holster, the thin nature of the Raven Concealment Systems ACR rig may become a significant aspect of the design's appeal. When you couple the thinness of the rig with the ability to adjust ride height & cant, the synergy is remarkable.
TLG has listed a number of attributes of A-IWB, primarily focusing on carriage and gun manipulation, already in this thread.
From my perspective, some of the less recognized strengths of A-IWB have to do with ‘in fight weapon access’. IFWA, exactly as the name implies, has to do with accessing tools while physically engaged with an opponent. Tools carried forward of the hips allow us access while keeping a good ‘hips squared’ structure during the fight. A pretty smart fellow once told me, “A fight consists of at least two people, one moving forward and one moving backward.” If you think back to every bar fight, every UFC match, hell, every schoolyard brawl, you ought to be able to envision what he was on about. That same guy also said, “The fight will collapse to the closest range desired by one of the involved, so long as he can take what the other fellow can dish out while maneuvering to his desired range.” Whether we are talking pistol, folding knife, small fixed blade is incidental, keeping the hips square allow us to drive forward, taking the fight to the bad guy instead of being rag-dolled around.
One of the reasons that the alphabet soup guy mentioned earlier began looking at A-IWB was for continuity of weapons placement/access. He had spent a fair bit of time training with Kelly McCann & Co and was used to running baton & knife from appendix carry, so it just made sense to streamline his ‘weapon access’ flow to one point.
A-IWB also allows much smoother and safer weapons access when grounded. Anything carried on the hip points or behind has a negative impact on your ability to move on the ground. To access a tool carried behind the hip, you have to, at least partially, give up your back to initiate a grasp of it. In a close quarters engagement where things are measured in millimeters and microseconds, that can be costly.
The knife is an old Cold Steel Mini-Culloden that's no longer being made. The sheath is a custom job by Infight Access Kydex.
IAK can make a sheath for a current production Cold Steel Braveheart, which is as close to the Mini-Culloden as you can get these days.:(
At the Dave Pennington class (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20563) this past weekend and then again today via PM, two folks have mentioned to me that they're struggling with the comfort of their appendix holsters.
In both cases, the issue was resolved simply by moving the holster closer to the body centerline. I find that most people get best results by placing the holster somewhere between the pants button and the first belt loop. I normally have the holster loop pressed right up against the first belt loop moving from center clockwise around my waist.
Both of the guys who were experiencing pain from AIWB were putting the holster on the other side of that first belt loop, moving the holster a couple of inches farther from centerline and forcing the muzzle end of the holster into their leg, especially when sitting, driving, etc.
I carry my G26 at the appendix, great spot and comfy for me. I have carried a 17 and 5.7 there, not bad, a tad of muzzle bump, nothing that was so bad I couldn't carry them that way.
I was doing some draw and fire drills from concealment Sunday from appendix carry. It's so much easier to present from concealment than strong side. The lack of a full combat grip is a little tough to get used to though.
If you can't get a full grip on the gun, the holster probably lets the gun sit too low. I have my completed grip on the gun before it comes out of the holster.
Yeah. The holster sits a little low. Even at that, I was still amazed at the smoothness of the presentation. There's so much less contortion and effort compared to uncovering the gun on the strong side and drawing it.
Several years ago, Lou Alessi made holsters so issued M1911 pistols could be carried in the appendix position--this was the only carry method that while wearing a double breasted service dress uniform coat, especially when seated in a vehicle.
These holster worked perfectly for the intended mission. I became a big fan of their slight reverse cant. To date, this is the most comfortable and effective A-IWB holster I have used. The only thing that could be improved upon is perhaps a better belt fastener.
I really want appendix carry to work. It would solve almost all of my issues with 3:30 carry, but I have not found the magic combination yet. I tried the A-IWB version of the Looper with an M&P full size. It printed like crazy and I could not get a full grip on the gun from the holster. The grip would work its way down too close to my belt. I tried it both to the right and left of the first belt loop. Closer to the center of my body was MUCH more comfortable and printed less, but not being able to get a consistent grip is a deal killer. I am 5'11" ~170 lbs and had a hard time concealing this setup for those that might be interested.
I may have to give the appendix carry rig from Raven a try.
98z -- an AIWB should ride as low as possible while still allowing a full grip on the gun. If your Looper was riding lower than that, I suggest you contact CCC and ask them to modify it.
Personally, I want mine to be low enough that I need to force my fingers in between the frontstrap and my belt. It doesn't need to give a lot of clearance from the top of your slacks, just from the belt itself.
I have been Running the Raven acr for sometime now (I had the first prototype) for the MP from them.
its THIN as Gomez states and it spreads the weight of the gun very well
I have removed the far strut and replaced it with there single wider belt clip and it makes a world options for placement
having gone from a EHUD which was bulky and clunky to a RCS its night and day
Todd, I'm sold on trying A-IWB. Will Rich do them for the 226 do you know?
Marc, put your pics up ;)
Haven't been on here for awhile but it would be nice to see a whole post on here revolving around A-IWB technique, or perhaps on Todd's website. Ya, that's the ticket!
I received two AIWB holsters today. One is an updated Looper (the version most folks have received who ordered the appendix version ... mine was a prototype that I managed to break). The other is a prototype from Mark Garrity, a leather holster with some unique features to maximize its suitability for AIWB. Once we get some bugs worked out, he'll go into production and I'll be able to post pics.
As for pics and details, appendixcarry.com is coming soon. :cool:
I am going to have to try this. I have a gut, unfortunately (6 2 and 240 though going down slowly). Have to see if I can make it work.
I have been using a Smart Carry. Mainly because of my physique. Terribly slow to draw but works with any pair of pants -- casual or suit. I have it placed such that I can reach through the fly with zipper down and retrieve me P229R ;) The butt is above my "package" and the slide lies along my upper leg. Makes it easy to use a urinal and I can sit or stand without issue and discomfort. I usually forget it is there. If nothing else, I like the Smart Carry as a backup (if you had a normal IWB/AIWB) since it works with almost any attire and is pretty comfortable once you work with and adjust it for a few days.
I'm about 6' and 210#. I've definitely got more of a gut than I need.
If I've learned one thing about appendix carry since I started this, it's that the holster has to be just right. The vast majority of people who have a lot of serious thought and time invested in AIWB all seem to gravitate toward the same set of criteria for a good holster, but so few holsters are on the market which actually meet all of those criteria.
I received two AIWB holsters today. One is an updated Looper (the version most folks have received who ordered the appendix version ... mine was a prototype that I managed to break). The other is a prototype from Mark Garrity, a leather holster with some unique features to maximize its suitability for AIWB. Once we get some bugs worked out, he'll go into production and I'll be able to post pics.
As for pics and details, appendixcarry.com is coming soon. :cool:
HA! Well cool man :D
I emailed Garrity's and got a reply back from Mark asking for any suggestions that I might have about the holster, and the only thing I could think of that was semi-intelligent was "Umm, send me one and I'll tell you if I like it" ;)
I am far from the level of experience that most all that are posting have.
But I am a restaurant supervisor, meaning standing and walking around ten to twelve hours a day. Constantly dealing with the public.
A few weeks ago I tried carrying a S&W 637 airweight in a cheap uncle mikes iwb holster at the 12:30 to 1:00 position. It was total all day comfort. At times to much because I could not really feel it,making me think I had lost it.
For the last week or so I have been carrying a Glock 19 this way. Also in a cheap uncle mikes iwb holster. It to has been comfortable considering the low quality holster. I just didn't want to spend alot on "another" holster having never tried one.
I just ordered a Raven Concealment ACR for my G19. I cannot wait to recieve it.
They told me 30-35 days for shipment.
John Frazer
11-11-08, 16:43
I am going to have to try this. I have a gut, unfortunately (6 2 and 240 though going down slowly). Have to see if I can make it work.
I was in a class with a large-stomached gentleman who carried a pistol (G19, I think) in an appendix holster. Not sure if it was the way he wore his pants or what, but his belly pushed the butt of the gun forward; not only was this a safety issue (at least in my opinion), but it also didn't conceal well (despite the shadow cast by his physique).
I have been using a Smart Carry. Mainly because of my physique. Terribly slow to draw but works with any pair of pants -- casual or suit. I have it placed such that I can reach through the fly with zipper down and retrieve me P229R ;)
I'm trying to imagine the look on an assailant's face as you begin this drawstroke. ;) But despite the possible psychological advantage, I believe I'll stick with a regular IWB.
Regardless of physique, a lot of poorly designed AIWB holsters will allow the butt to sag forward. Obviously, the more gut you have the more this problem will affect you. A well designed AIWB won't have this problem for most people within the major portion of the buddha belly bell curve.
John_Wayne777
11-11-08, 18:07
I had the guys at Raven make me an ACR for the LCP with a CT module on it when they showed up at the Vickers/Hackathorn Low Light II course. It worked pretty good for 10 hours of carry today. I'm still trying to work out the best way to carry it, but I think it will prove to be very useful.
Don Robison
11-12-08, 02:05
Great thread Todd. I've been carrying a G21SF AIWB in a High Noon Hideaway(horse hide) for the past 18 months. I tried kydex from various manufacturers and as Gomez said, leather is more comfortable albeit more expensive. In the big scheme of things though I'm willing to pay for comfort and quality.
I'm trying to imagine the look on an assailant's face as you begin this drawstroke. ;) But despite the possible psychological advantage, I believe I'll stick with a regular IWB.
Well, it is not for quick action draw, though it is pretty quick once you practice it some :). I'll give up my wallet and try and run or evade to a place where I can draw. It is not perfect but that is the way it is currently. I am trying to find a better solution and use the Smart Carry thing for a backup.
But in a mall shooting, or other thing where you have time to slowly draw and the action is not (yet) directly aimed at you it works well...
Some people can actually draw pretty fast out the top of their pants but I tend to have a belt to keep my pants up and due to the belly that is not the easiest draw for me with it.
FWIW, Custom Carry Concepts (http://www.shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=10) has just added the G17/G22 to the list of weapons for which they can make holsters, including the AIWB version of the Looper.
I am ashamed to admit it, but I did use a clip-draw on my G32 2 years ago at my last company. I was able to sit at my computer and draft, even leaning forward a lot of times while working on projects. I was surprised at how comfortable it was but always felt half-assed not having areal holster. At that time I was probably 190lbs in my 5'10" frame.
Ever since then I've been carrying that same pistol in a Comptac shirt tucker at 4:00. I can't get to the pistol easily with the way the seats in my car are- definitely not if I have a jacket on. With appendix carry, I wouldn't have that problem at all. I like A-IWB for driving- it's very suspicious and difficult to pull of a draw from 4:00 in the event of car jacking IMHO. Drawing from appendix would not look suspicious and very natural actually if you were unbuckling and pulling away your seat belt as the perp would expect you to. The only reason I bring this up is it's constantly in my mind since the last time someone crawled into my open car window ;)
Thanks for the good article Todd!
The only problem I see with Appendix carry is in the event of a traffic stop. Even though it may be completely aboveboard it will certainly make the officer very nervous until you can get things sorted out. In that case would it be best to advise the officer of the gun placement before he happens to catch sight of it?
I always tell the nice policeman that I have a gun when I get pulled over. In my experience, most officers are nicer to CCW holders.
With a better designed AIWB and reasonably thick/dark concealment garment, it's not really that noticeable. I use my seatbelt to keep the butt of the gun as tight against my body as possible. I can draw very fast even with the seatbelt on. I make it a habit to get my wallet out of my back pocket before the officer gets to my car, so when he arrives my wallet is in the center console and my hands are on the steering wheel.
So Todd, do you get stopped often?:D
decodeddiesel
04-02-09, 16:05
Wow what a long yet interesting read, seven pages of good honest discussion and input! I have been mulling over just what is going to work best for me for concealed carry a lot lately, and I think AIWB may be best.
I usually wear a tucked polo or dressed shirt while at the office, and for that I will not be able to employ AIWB, but a tuckable IWB holster or smart carry works great. However my normal attire when not at work presents a problem. Usually I wear an untucked t-shirt or polo shirt and jeans. Unfortunately I just can't wear a safari vest (or other open front concealment garments) or fanny pack. In the winter OK I weat a coat, but 8 months out of the year it's not going to work. Carrying IWB at 4:00 lends to issues when I am dining at restaurants or in situations where my shirt rides up and can print of expose my holstered weapon. For this reason I have been carrying a PPK in a pocket holster. Somewhat less than ideal solution.
Not to mention drawing while seated in my car is absolutely impossible. I have a Subaru STi which has highly bolstered racing style seats. Great for "spirited driving" in the mountains here, bad if I need to draw to stop a (somewhat likely) car jacking.
I think AIWB will be perfect for the way I dress and will work very well while seated in my car. I placed a an order for the appendix modified looper, so after much dry practice and wearing it around the house I will give it a go. I think I am fairly close to Todd's size (I am 6' 210lbs with a 34" waist) so this may work out well. Thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread and your input!
I've found a couple of inexpensive straight drop holsters that work very well with A-IWB carry are the FIST Model 1K (ultrathin kydex) and High Noon's Mr Softy.
I've employed A-IWB as situationally called for since the early '80's and found it pretty useful and comfortable enough incl seated, bending etc.
I've found it particularly useful for situations where I would be at risk for an unintentional bump frisk or when seated where I'd be leaning forward (thereby avoiding printing from hip position.
So it's not unusual for me to carry my G19 A-IWB one day and 3:00 or 3:30 the next.
I even use the aforementioned clips. I've found that the conventional wisdom of clips coming off with the gun or reaching to the wrong place for the gun have not been well founded with high quality holters and robust and well designed clips. I've had to reach for one under social pressure a few times and never forgot whether it was in one place, the other or in the glove box.
I encounter situations where I need to shed the gun promptly without a lot of commotion and stipping a tight belt loop of the unfastened belt is not necessary.
Now I don't work in the security or LE field and won't quibble with pro's prefence for other modes.
But I relegate the conventional wisdom against clips or carrying in different positions to the conventional wisdom that adjustable sights on a defensive handgun are an abomination when American LE spent so many decades with adjustable sighted revolvers without disaster.
Vast quantities of practice draws from each position no doubt have played a factor.
Thanks for bringing this thread back VMI-MO. Lots of good info. When I have trouble hiding my Glock 30 I usually resort to carrying my S&W Air Lite Ti in a Desantis pocket holster. I would like to try the AIWB style for the Glock but I have a question...
What is the difference in the FBI cant and the Appendix? I'm having trouble picturing the difference. Thanks. :)
I've found that the conventional wisdom of clips coming off with the gun or reaching to the wrong place for the gun have not been well founded with high quality holters and robust and well designed clips.
Well, most of the kydex makers use the same clips from the same source. Those that don't instead tend to use thinner, less sturdy clips. If you haven't had a clip break, you're either very lucky or haven't pushed your gear very hard. An SF buddy and I just finished evaluating a company's kydex AIWB and one of the major complaints was that the clip made the holster all but useless in a weapons retention fight. YMMV, but that matters to me.
On the flipside, I do not find myself in situations which might require me to ditch my gun covertly at a moment's notice.
What is the difference in the FBI cant and the Appendix? I'm having trouble picturing the difference. Thanks. :)
An FBI cant tilts the gun so that the rear sight is farther forward than the muzzle, usually by about 15 degrees. This is generally used for both OWB and IWB concealment holsters carried on or behind the strong side hip.
Traditionally, appendix holsters have had a slight (5-10 degree) "reverse" cant. It works fine for guns with very short grips (such as revolvers) but as the grip becomes longer it compromises concealability. It also either places the gun's center of gravity too high or the grip itself too low.
AIWB holsters that are designed for carrying larger pistols tend to evolve toward a more or less straight drop design. The Looper works that way, as will the upcoming Garrity AIWB.
Problem: I have found that when standing it is more comfortable to allow the holster to "ride low", while when I am sitting it is more comfortable to have the holster higher and out of my ball region.
There is too much holster in your pants. Compare the UCH:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l46/Syntax360/UCH-1.jpg
... with the Looper:
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/aiwblooper-300x350.jpg
... or this Garrity prototype from last year:
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/tlgedc081003.jpg
See how much more room there is inside your pants with the Looper and Garrity? If your holster is rubbing you wrong when you sit, consider a different holster. You shouldn't have to shift it around by hand, especially since this could draw the wrong attention from some people.
Problem: Some people experience some really nasty rubbing on the inside of their leg from the tip of the holster.
This is usually caused by having too wide a holster body (as above) and/or because the person is trying to wear the holster too far towards the hip. I wear mine the same place you indicated (between pants button and first belt loop) and never have this problem with a proper narrow-bodied AIWB.
An FBI cant tilts the gun so that the rear sight is farther forward than the muzzle, usually by about 15 degrees. This is generally used for both OWB and IWB concealment holsters carried on or behind the strong side hip.
Traditionally, appendix holsters have had a slight (5-10 degree) "reverse" cant. It works fine for guns with very short grips (such as revolvers) but as the grip becomes longer it compromises concealability. It also either places the gun's center of gravity too high or the grip itself too low.
AIWB holsters that are designed for carrying larger pistols tend to evolve toward a more or less straight drop design. The Looper works that way, as will the upcoming Garrity AIWB.
Thanks for the clarification. Now I can picture the difference. I am considering a AIWB like the Looper for my Glock 30. What are thoughts on Appendix carry for a small Glock like the 30?
The G30 isn't exactly small. It's about the same size as a G19, and I know quite a few people who AIWB the G19. In fact, the guy who sort of started the ball rolling on my interest for AIWB has been carrying a G19 that way both over here and over there for quite a while.
But I think it's worth reminding folks that there are inherent dangers related to AIWB, especially for guns with no manual safety and no hammer. Even well trained people make mistakes. Make a mistake holstering your AIWB-carried pistol and if you're lucky you'll only blow your privates to hell. If you're unlucky you will get to experience first hand what a femoral blow-out looks like.
Always make sure there is nothing obstructing your holster before you put the gun away.
Always make sure your finger is completely off of and away from the trigger before you put the gun away.
Tilt the butt inboard as you holster, which should have the effect of pressing the muzzle outward so that if you do inadvertently touch off a round, it might go forward far enough to miss all of your important parts.
Never be in a hurry to put the gun away. I know there are some legitimate reasons to holster a gun quickly, but they're few, far between, and not worth killing yourself over (literally).
Practice with a dry gun approximately one million times before you put a loaded gun down the front of your pants.
If you follow all of the above advice and still blow your dick off or put a round through your leg, sucks to be you. You were warned.
Thanks Todd, great points... I like my privates and I don't want to watch myself quickly bleed to death. :eek: Practice, Practice, Practice drawing and holstering until it is second nature and never touch the trigger until you're ready. Thanks again. :cool: I think I'll try a Looper AIWB. If it doesn't work for me, I'll add it to the box of holsters that I don't use.
Heavy Metal
04-02-09, 22:02
The G30 isn't exactly small. It's about the same size as a G19, and I know quite a few people who AIWB the G19. In fact, the guy who sort of started the ball rolling on my interest for AIWB has been carrying a G19 that way both over here and over there for quite a while.
But I think it's worth reminding folks that there are inherent dangers related to AIWB, especially for guns with no manual safety and no hammer. Even well trained people make mistakes. Make a mistake holstering your AIWB-carried pistol and if you're lucky you'll only blow your privates to hell. If you're unlucky you will get to experience first hand what a femoral blow-out looks like.
Always make sure there is nothing obstructing your holster before you put the gun away.
Always make sure your finger is completely off of and away from the trigger before you put the gun away.
Tilt the butt inboard as you holster, which should have the effect of pressing the muzzle outward so that if you do inadvertently touch off a round, it might go forward far enough to miss all of your important parts.
Never be in a hurry to put the gun away. I know there are some legitimate reasons to holster a gun quickly, but they're few, far between, and not worth killing yourself over (literally).
Practice with a dry gun approximately one million times before you put a loaded gun down the front of your pants.
If you follow all of the above advice and still blow your dick off or put a round through your leg, sucks to be you. You were warned.
It is exactly reasons like this I wish Glock would offer a model with a manual safety.
Is S&W going to offer their compact nine with a safety Todd?
It is exactly reasons like this I wish Glock would offer a model with a manual safety.
Me too...but whenever I have the temerity of even suggesting this, the "keep your booger hook of the bang switch" commandos come out of the woodwork and excoriate me inside out (on another forum) :)
shooter521
04-03-09, 09:37
Is S&W going to offer their compact nine with a safety Todd?
To expound on Todd's previous response, the S&W M&P9C w/ manual safety should be on shelves (or at least available for order) as I type this; we had one in last weekend at the shop where I work part-time, here in central IN.
Wearing it right now. Hoping the design gets finalized within a month or so (one of the M4C mods is getting a pre-production sample to T&E for final feedback and any last minute changes) and then I should have permission to post photos.
Fair enough sir. Thanks.
In certain markets, Glock has previously released pistols for government contracts that required a manual safety.
In certain markets, Glock has previously released pistols for government contracts that required a manual safety.
My understanding has always been that the safety-equipped Glocks are completely verboten here in the U.S. because Glock is fearful of potential legal backlash.
According to lawyers at both gun companies I worked for, Glock gets sued for safety/accident issues more than the entire rest of the firearms industry combined. Coming into the market now with a safety equipped gun, they fear, will appear like admission of guilt that the standard configuration isn't safe enough.
My understanding has always been that the safety-equipped Glocks are completely verboten here in the U.S. because Glock is fearful of potential legal backlash.
According to lawyers at both gun companies I worked for, Glock gets sued for safety/accident issues more than the entire rest of the firearms industry combined. Coming into the market now with a safety equipped gun, they fear, will appear like admission of guilt that the standard configuration isn't safe enough.
At a SHOT show a few years ago, I asked a Glock rep (one of the flunkies, not the ones that shot for their team or GSSF :) ) about the availability of the manual safety pistol and he looked at me like I had two heads, he said "why do you want the safety?"
My understanding has always been that the safety-equipped Glocks are completely verboten here in the U.S. because Glock is fearful of potential legal backlash.
According to lawyers at both gun companies I worked for, Glock gets sued for safety/accident issues more than the entire rest of the firearms industry combined. Coming into the market now with a safety equipped gun, they fear, will appear like admission of guilt that the standard configuration isn't safe enough.
Interesting, and actually probably a realistic concern in this litigious society.
As my pal Mike Orick likes to say, Glocks are the Perfect gun for Perfect people.
hehe yeah!
Next time I'll tell the perfect person to put his perfect Glock where his money is, and carry that bad boy mexican appendix carry, if all one needs to worry about is "keeping one's booger hook off the bang switch" :p
I've never had big enough onions to carry a condition 1 Glk stuck inside my pants. I don't want to sit down on one either....Jeff Cooper compared the Glk safety to having a safe and writing the combination on the door. That said, I love my Glks.
I would admit to applying condition 3 to how I use them but better keep my trap shut.:D
Cruncher Block
04-04-09, 15:37
Make a mistake holstering your AIWB-carried pistol and if you're lucky you'll only blow your privates to hell. If you're unlucky you will get to experience first hand what a femoral blow-out looks like.
I was just trying it with a (triple-checked) unloaded gun. "Femoral artery" was my first concern.
I'm not too worried about my testicles. Being married, they aren't that important to me anymore.
parishioner
04-11-09, 15:57
After watching that "If I only had a gun" segment on 20/20, I was wondering how an appendix carry would perform as opposed to a 4 o'clock position if you were in a classroom and you were squating and hunched in terms of drawing the weapon.
I've never had to draw while squatting or hunched in a classroom, so for the sake of total disclosure this is just speculation on my part. :cool:
I can draw my pistol from an appendix location faster and much more subtly than I can from an on- or behind-the-hip location. I can put my hand on the gun in anticipation without drawing much attention to myself. I can draw it while sitting even if there are people, chair arms, etc. pressed up against my side. I can draw it while prone. I can draw it easily with either my right or left hand.
So far, the only negative to AIWB I've found is the obvious: if you **** up, you're going to shoot yourself in a part of the body much less forgiving of GSWs than your ass. I don't say this snidely. Intelligent, well trained, safety conscious people do make mistakes, "my finger is the only safety I need" nonsense not withstanding. While others may disagree, I don't see appendix carry as something you can just decide to start doing one day.
Heavy Metal
04-11-09, 19:21
I was just trying it with a (triple-checked) unloaded gun. "Femoral artery" was my first concern.
I'm not too worried about my testicles. Being married, they aren't that important to me anymore.
In other words, you no longer hold the title on them.
Heavy Metal
04-11-09, 19:25
After watching that "If I only had a gun" segment on 20/20, I was wondering how an appendix carry would perform as opposed to a 4 o'clock position if you were in a classroom and you were squating and hunched in terms of drawing the weapon.
Actually, the yahoos in the ABC video stood up and then drew their weapons from the open instead of seeking cover behind that thick wooden roundtable desk first.
They made of themselves a pop-up target.
Hell, those classroom wide desks gave both cover and concealment and the students readily threw it away.
parishioner
04-11-09, 22:50
Actually, the yahoos in the ABC video stood up and then drew their weapons from the open instead of seeking cover behind that thick wooden roundtable desk first.
They made of themselves a pop-up target.
Hell, those classroom wide desks gave both cover and concealment and the students readily threw it away.
Yea, they obviously put them selves in danger. I was just wondering if they had stayed hunched over and squating, utilizing an appendix carry, how it would work.
I just did several draw strokes from appendix carry with my Glock 19 while squating and hunched over and it worked just fine. As long as you can get your concealment garment out of the way there is no issue drawing from that position.
I even did several draw strokes while flat on my belly in the prone shooting positon and I had no issues getting my gun out.
The holster I used was the Raven ACR positioned at about the 1 o'clock.
After watching that "If I only had a gun" segment on 20/20, I was wondering how an appendix carry would perform as opposed to a 4 o'clock position if you were in a classroom and you were squating and hunched in terms of drawing the weapon.
Gents - let's just keep in mind that no method of carry provides a silver bullet. (Sorry for the bad pun.) I personally believe AIWB is far superior to traditional behind the hip carry for my own purposes. However, in a scenario such as the one in the 20/20 episode (however contrived) in which an armed assailant has a gun out and ready and is specifically targeting YOU and you are not already behind cover with a gun out and ready, you are in a world of hurt regardless of your method of carry.
On the other hand, if you are not the specific target of the assailant, he does not know you are armed, you are laying in a somewhat awkward position and have a brief period of time in which the attention of the assailant if not directly focused on you, AIWB offers a lot of advantages in terms of quickly deploying the weapon without drawing attention.
Yojimbo what model and make is the knife attached to your belt? if you don't mind me asking.
Yojimbo what model and make is the knife attached to your belt? if you don't mind me asking.
Check out the thread below for details on the knife...;)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=29765
Shadow1198
04-27-09, 02:23
Just curious of anyone's opinion. Seeing as I am 6' 2" and 230#, obviously I have a bit of a gut. ;) I've lost ~37# recently, and I'm still going so hopefully I'll be down to the 10-12% BF level before too long. In the time being, I'm wondering what some of my better options would be for appendix carry considering the aforementioned gut? lol Judging by everything I've been reading, and some initial trial and error with a few holsters and few different sized carry guns, it seems I'll be best off carrying something subcompact and a bit lower on my waist (right below the gut). I'm leaning towards just going with a G26 for now since it's small enough to carry below the gut, and a G19 to carry in more of an appropriate AIWB height when I actually have the washboard abs that won't shove the gun out there for all the world to see. ;) Is my reasoning on track?
Have any of you found any low profile, thin, leather holsters conducive to AIWB carry? Most of the leather holsters I've seen, handled, used were either way too thick due to mouth inserts and such, or else very thin and flimsy and didn't feel stable enough for my liking (Galco stow n go for example). I think I will be ordering an ACR soon and a Looper when they are available again.
I'm not exactly "washboard" and I manage. :cool:
There's no question, AIWB is easier if you're part of the narcissistic triathlete crowd.
The clothing you choose and the holster you use will make a big difference. You want to make sure the gun rides low enough that doesn't lean forward of your body. The holster also needs a stiff enough belt loop that you can control cant and angle (vertical & horizontal).
The new Garrity prototype I'm using has a unique approach to help with comfort and concealment. The "beta test" holsters should be going out this week and hopefully Garrity will be adding it to his line up in May.
Littlelebowski
04-27-09, 13:42
I'm 5'10" and 200 and I have no problems with the Looper and a a proper CCW belt.
I carry a comp tac 2 o'clock with no problem at 5'10 215 at 10% bf. When I was at 16% or so it became an issue due to the food baby I was nurturing. The bigger the gut the harder to conceal and more uncomfortable it becomes for sure.
I carry a comp tac 2 o'clock with no problem at 5'10 215 at 10% bf. When I was at 16% or so it became an issue due to the food baby I was nurturing. The bigger the gut the harder to conceal and more uncomfortable it becomes for sure.
I wouldn't draw too many global conclusions based on the original Comp-Tac 2 O'Clock.
They sent me an updated version a while back to evaluate and with a few tweaks it could be a reasonable option.
My CCC looper arrived last week, and I've been wearing an unloaded G19 or blue gun around the house to get used to it. Still working on my draw from concealment (short sleeved button down shirt with t-shirt underneath), raising my shirt up over the holster as opposed to swiping it back is new...
I hit the range and tried it live today, and I was very uncomfortable reholstering. That's gonna take some getting used to for sure. I was in super-slow-mo, but I still felt like some part of my shirt(s) was gonna snag and I'd be in a world of hurt :eek:
I wouldn't draw too many global conclusions based on the original Comp-Tac 2 O'Clock.
They sent me an updated version a while back to evaluate and with a few tweaks it could be a reasonable option.
It is the new version. I'd like to try the looper. Though I like the Comptac a lot. I like a lot of folks I gain weight in the offseason ie fall and winter then lose in the spring and summer.
I hit the range and tried it live today, and I was very uncomfortable reholstering.
If that changes at some point, stop carrying AIWB.
It is the new version.
I wasn't aware the new version was out. They announced the new appendix MTAC (which I previewed and wasn't that crazy about, but they did move the rear belt loop back farther which was an important change) but last I heard the new 2 O'Clock wasn't out yet. The model they picture on their website is the older version. Between the two (prototype MTAC Appendix and prototype "new" 2 O'Clock) I definitely preferred the 2 O'Clock by a very wide margin.
Read the entire thread and it has lots of intelligent, insightful information. Seriously considering giving this a try in the near future. Thanks for the good info!
I've also decided to give SmartCarry a try, at least to see what it's like. They agreed to send me one for T&E, so we'll see. I can't imagine it will become my everyday approach due to the speed issue, but if it allows me to carry a full size gun when I need to be dressed like an adult (tucked in shirt, etc.) then it will be a nice addition to the option pile.
I've also decided to give SmartCarry a try, at least to see what it's like. They agreed to send me one for T&E, so we'll see. I can't imagine it will become my everyday approach due to the speed issue, but if it allows me to carry a full size gun when I need to be dressed like an adult (tucked in shirt, etc.) then it will be a nice addition to the option pile.
Does it come with mullet, light blue jeans, snakeskin boots, and require you not to wear a belt with a tucked in shirt??? I'm not fashion police but holy stuck in the wrong decade batman!
http://www.smartcarry.com/photos.html
epic photos. man/woman set.
Does it come with mullet, light blue jeans, snakeskin boots, and require you not to wear a belt with a tucked in shirt??? I'm not fashion police but holy stuck in the wrong decade batman!
http://www.smartcarry.com/photos.html
epic photos. man/woman set.
WHOOAAAHHHH!!!
As I've posted here before, my summertime t-shirt concealment carry is a S&W Centennial 640 with Barami hip grip and Tyler T-grip......
......carried sans holster in the appendix position.
With the gun under the waistband, and no added holster bulk, even a thin, worn out t-shirt is enough to conceal.
We've just received the first stint of substantially hot weather here, and the Centennial is back in action as I write.
Jay Cunningham
06-04-09, 19:22
I've been carrying AIWB for about two weeks now with a CCC Looper and am learning a thing or two. As of right this moment, I've discovered that *for me* carrying the holster close to my body centerline - but on my support side - gives me the best results re concealment and comfort.
decodeddiesel
06-04-09, 19:29
I've been carrying AIWB for about two weeks now with a CCC Looper and am learning a thing or two. As of right this moment, I've discovered that *for me* carrying the holster close to my body centerline - but on my support side - gives me the best results re concealment and comfort.
Hmmm. Interesting idea. I will try support side as well. What weapon are your carrying, a G19?
Jay Cunningham
06-04-09, 19:32
Hmmm. Interesting idea. I will try support side as well. What weapon are your carrying, a G19?
Yes, G19. *For me* it printed too much carrying between the center line and first belt loop on my strong side, so I decided to put it in the same place on my support side - and so far I like it much better.
I've been carrying AIWB for about two weeks now with a CCC Looper and am learning a thing or two. As of right this moment, I've discovered that *for me* carrying the holster close to my body centerline - but on my support side - gives me the best results re concealment and comfort.
Katar -
At what position on the clock do you place the holster, and does the butt of the gun cross over your centerline?
Jay Cunningham
06-04-09, 19:33
Katar -
At what position on the clock do you place the holster, and does the butt of the gun cross over your centerline?
Holster at my 11:30, the butt crosses my centerline about 50/50.
decodeddiesel
06-04-09, 19:38
Well I've got bit more gut that I would like which tends to push the belt loop on the Looper out a little bit more than I am comfortable with if a wear a bit tighter fitting polo or t-shirt. I carry an M&P9 compact, so size is comparable. I will have to try this.
I have been utilizing AWIB carry for about five years, usually a Glock 19, but have also carried a sig 226:eek: and recently an hk p30; for me, its easy, convenient and works! To each his own.
Chris17404
06-04-09, 19:45
I have been utilizing AWIB carry for about five years, usually a Glock 19, but have also carried a sig 226:eek: and recently an hk p30; for me, its easy, convenient and works! To each his own.
drsal,
What appendix carry-specific holsters have you used for the Sig P226 and HK P30? Thanks.
Chris
Will pm you with the company name after I look it up:(, it was located in Tarpon Springs,Fl if I recal correctly.
It was High Noon Holsters in Tarpon Springs, FL, Had a 'senior' moment and couldn't recall the name.
I've been carrying AIWB for about two weeks now with a CCC Looper and am learning a thing or two. As of right this moment, I've discovered that *for me* carrying the holster close to my body centerline - but on my support side - gives me the best results re concealment and comfort.
I've been trying this as well and I've found that it's the best way for me to carry a full size pistol.
Obviously, we each have to figure out what works best for us individually given body shape and size, clothing choices, holster, gun, etc.
However, as a general rule, putting the gun past the centerline causes some other problems which may not be worth the perceived gain in concealability.
Once the gun moves past the centerline, it becomes easier for someone facing you to take it away.
Anytime you need to reach past your centerline to draw a weapon when you cannot have a locked wrist you are dramatically increasing the chances that someone close in to you can trap or block your draw.
When the gun is past the centerline, there is an increased chance you may "break the 180" during your draw. While this may not be a concern for some people, it's pretty much unacceptable behavior on most ranges.
An AIWB with proper ride height, cant, and angle relative to the belt line seems to work best for most people at around the 1 o'clock point.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-06-09, 10:25
The funny thing is this was the way I carried when I bought my first gun back in 91 (a P7). All I had was a flimsy Bianchi IWB soft leather holster that I cut the snap off of. It worked well. But later I allowed myself to be convinced that I was doing something wrong. These days my lazy butt just uses a paddle holster under a loose shirt.
Obviously, we each have to figure out what works best for us individually given body shape and size, clothing choices, holster, gun, etc.
However, as a general rule, putting the gun past the centerline causes some other problems which may not be worth the perceived gain in concealability.
Once the gun moves past the centerline, it becomes easier for someone facing you to take it away.
Anytime you need to reach past your centerline to draw a weapon when you cannot have a locked wrist you are dramatically increasing the chances that someone close in to you can trap or block your draw.
When the gun is past the centerline, there is an increased chance you may "break the 180" during your draw. While this may not be a concern for some people, it's pretty much unacceptable behavior on most ranges.
An AIWB with proper ride height, cant, and angle relative to the belt line seems to work best for most people at around the 1 o'clock point.
Thanks, these are great points. I've only been trying it for about a week with my current rig until the Looper gets here. I'm sure that having a proper appendix carry holster will change things for me. I'll let you know in about a week how it's working out.
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/aiwb-normal.jpg
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/aiwb-armsup.jpg
(you can just make out the bezel of my flashlight in the Safariland RLS)
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/aiwb-showall.jpg
Todd - is that the CCC Looper and mag pouch? Also, are you using the Safariland flashlight with the RLS or another light?
Thanks
Is that a Planet Ocean? :) Very nice.
Todd - is that the CCC Looper and mag pouch? Also, are you using the Safariland flashlight with the RLS or another light?
HK P30 V4 (http://www.hk-usa.com/p30_general.asp) in Custom Carry Concepts appendix Looper (http://www.shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=10)
spare magazine in Custom Carry Concepts Basic Mag Carrier (http://www.shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=2&productId=11)
Novatac (http://www.novatac.com/) 120P in a Safariland RLS (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/rls/index.aspx)
Is that a Planet Ocean? :) Very nice.
You ask much, much better questions, Sam. Yes, that is a 45.5 orange/orange PO. I bought it the first year they were available. They used to "burn in" all the co-axial movements back then to make sure they were ready for prime time. Mine keeps almost perfect time, gaining on average about one quarter second per day.
decodeddiesel
06-06-09, 19:12
I hate to ask more gear queer questions, but...
Is your Looper leather lined or something?
ETA: Reason why I ask is the only hang-up I have with the Looper is the top of the holster which is against my skin tends to cut into my gut and is not too comfortable. Still this is the best mode of carry for the way I dress by far.
Littlelebowski
06-06-09, 20:13
I hate to ask more gear queer questions, but...
Is your Looper leather lined or something?
ETA: Reason why I ask is the only hang-up I have with the Looper is the top of the holster which is against my skin tends to cut into my gut and is not too comfortable. Still this is the best mode of carry for the way I dress by far.
Note his white skivvy shirt underneath. Some folks wear Body Armor shirts when carrying in the summer as well.
You ask much, much better questions, Sam. Yes, that is a 45.5 orange/orange PO. .
After all these pages, there's nothing that hasn't been covered, except for the watch. :)
decodeddiesel
06-06-09, 23:30
Note his white skivvy shirt underneath. Some folks wear Body Armor shirts when carrying in the summer as well.
Sure, I tend to wear a "wife beater" under my shirt, but in the 3rd pic I swear it looks like leather.
Is your Looper leather lined or something?
Yes. For an extra charge, CCC will epoxy a precision-cut piece of leather to the back of the holster. The primary purpose is to keep you comfortable when the gun gets really hot during extended firing sessions. (this is a particular issue with the M&P, and I've got a burn scar on my right hip to prove it)
The secondary purpose is to provide a softer contact surface, as you mentioned. However, as Lil'l pointed alluded to, I always wear an undershirt underneath my cover garment ... even if my cover garment is a t-shirt. It's just far more comfortable.
The leather lining also provides a little more positional stability to the holster, since there is substantially more friction between the holster and your body/clothing.
edited to add: Here is a picture showing the leather on an AIWB Looper for my M&P9:
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/looper-leatherside.jpg
Thanks for all the info in this thread Todd, very useful.
I've been carrying a J frame for years AIWB but have never really found a holster that I was happy with, the one you are sporting looks promising for my needs.
tpd223 -- I've been really happy with it. Can't take credit for the idea of turning it into an AIWB, though. Ernest Langdon had CCC make him a straight drop version for appendix carry more than a year ago. I just worked with CCC to tweak the design a bit based on info I got from folks who've been doing the AIWB thing for a long time.
sniperfrog
06-08-09, 15:47
Has anyone tried the Safariland Model 18? It's suede/synthetic suede and looks like it may be pretty comfortable. I will probably get another Looper but this looked like it may work well also.
I've been carrying an NAA Guardian .380 or a S&W 642 AIWB using cheap Uncle Mikes type IWB belt clip holsters for a few years now. Both work well at 1oclock and are short enough to avoid digging into the thigh or crushing a testicle when sitting. The biggest problem I have with this method of carry is the wear on the holsters. They rapidly tear apart where the clip is sewn to the holster and usually lasting about 6 months of intermittent use. I've tried leather and kydex holsters but the soft material of the cheap holsters is much more comfortable. I do have to inspect them frequently to make sure I don't lose a gun.
I've been trying this for a couple of weeks and after talking to Todd I switched back to the strong side at about 11 o'clock (I'm a lefty). It's been working better than weak side for me since I switched it back and made a few adjustments.
Erk1015 ... glad that worked out for you!
Hey Todd,
How's that Smartcarry been working out for you?
Any update on the Garrity prototype #2?
Hey Todd,
How's that Smartcarry been working out for you?
I've been wearing it three times a week. I'm taking an "Emergency First Responder" class at the American Red Cross and there is a lot of groping and poking of fellow students. Luckily, my training buddy is retired FBI (and also carrying) so it's worked out fine. No one has noticed the gun.
Would I carry this way if an untucked polo was a socially acceptable clothing option? No. It's substantially slower.
Could I carry this way every day if my choice was between SmartCarry or a mouse gun in my pocket? Absolutely and without hesitation. I've firmly moved into the "everyone should own a SmartCarry" camp.
Any update on the Garrity prototype #2?
Custom holster makers are never the most administratively organized folks, are they? Garrity emailed me a couple days ago to say that the latest prototype had been finished a while back but he lost my address. :p In theory, the holster shipped yesterday and could be here as early as tomorrow.
I've been wearing it three times a week. I'm taking an "Emergency First Responder" class at the American Red Cross and there is a lot of groping and poking of fellow students. Luckily, my training buddy is retired FBI (and also carrying) so it's worked out fine. No one has noticed the gun.
Would I carry this way if an untucked polo was a socially acceptable clothing option? No. It's substantially slower.
Could I carry this way every day if my choice was between SmartCarry or a mouse gun in my pocket? Absolutely and without hesitation. I've firmly moved into the "everyone should own a SmartCarry" camp.
I am not an expert like Todd.
I have had a SmartCarry for almost 2 years and carry with it daily. One key is adjusting it correctly. I wear it slightly to the left so the barrel rides down the inside of my left leg and the butt is over "the equipment". This means that when you sit it does not jam up but rides down the leg (though you end up "sweeping" whomever is sitting across from you). And you can easily urinate without having to readjust things much. And if you practice, you can get it out your fly pretty fast (not as fast as a normal holster draw) as the butt/grip of the pistol is right there. Hard to describe unless you have your own SmartCarry to try out.
Full size guns are not a problem to carry this way for most people I would think and would make a good backup gun if you carry in a more conventional way for your primary.
I have been all over the place with this an no one has ever noticed that I know about. You can even get into most places that pat you down first (not advocating illegal carry here).
Custom holster makers are never the most administratively organized folks, are they? Garrity emailed me a couple days ago to say that the latest prototype had been finished a while back but he lost my address. :p In theory, the holster shipped yesterday and could be here as early as tomorrow.
I've heard that tune, seen the movie and read that book before.
I've heard that tune, seen the movie and read that book before.
The last prototype was supposed to be just that, the last one. The holster I was to receive next was supposed to be a finished product, basically the first production holster in the line. I'd asked for tan horse with black elephant trim. It would have been beautiful.
But Garrity, in his quest for perfection, has decided to make another design change so now I'm going to assess that. It's a substantial change and I don't know if we'll do another round of "beta testing" like last time or not.
Personally, I was completely happy with the last version. Garrity has apparently come across an idea that will both reduce the amount of labor involved (the original version required a tremendous amount of hand stitching) and make the holster "look cleaner." I couldn't care less about either point, but I certainly understand him wanting the holster to look good and cost less if he can do so without compromising its functionality.
When using the smart carry rig can you still use a urinal in public without your gun being noticed?
This thread has me inspired. I have been experimenting with AIWB using my 2nd gen G19. I am presently using a convention Blade tech IWB and a leather Arsenal (think Summer Special with a shark fin at the bottom of the holster). The Blade Tech is more concealable, the LA holds the weapon at bit higher.
Dryfire presentations from concealment are definitely faster than my historic 3:30-4:00 placement using the timer to confirm what I "feel".
AIWB is opening a whole new world of fashion choices such that I am not such a tactical teddy. i.e. Sports logo or Puma/Nike/Addidas t-shirt in correct size over jeans/shorts and long sleve fashion shirt over slacks v. oversized square bottom shirt over cargo pants.
I have a new railed g19 in the pipeline. I am thinking seriously of going full bore with AIWB to include exploring a g19 with a light. perhaps with a TLR 3.
This AIWB stuff is going to make me buy a commander length 1911 before this is over as well as I think my g34/35 and 5 inch 1911s might be just a bit too long.
Thought and comments re the lighted AIWB are particularly welcome.
When using the smart carry rig can you still use a urinal in public without your gun being noticed?
Maybe you can, but I've not figured out a way yet after nearly 3 years of owning one. If you're in one of these places where they have lots of urinals lined up and either low or no privacy walls between them, anybody who glances at you could potentially see the rig.
When using the smart carry rig can you still use a urinal in public without your gun being noticed?
The way I carry it no problem. If there is a webcam pointed at your hose from the inside of the urinal they may spot it. Nothing protrudes out of the zipper so they would have to look down and inside the zipper to see anything which with most urinals is not possible. Plus your hands are there unzipping, guiding the hose, etc. For my style of SmartCarry carry, it is a non issue. The only thing I am ever afraid of is if my zipper is down for some reason so lock your zipper
Chad
Dave Williams
06-19-09, 16:33
I am continuing to use the Safariland 27 for appendix carry with complete satisfaction.
It is cheap, available, one hand reholsterable, adjustable cant and tension, easy on and off, and safarilaminate is more comfortable than kydex against the silky smooth skin of my six pack abs.:D
Dave Williams
When using the smart carry rig can you still use a urinal in public without your gun being noticed?
I try to avoid them to begin with (saw a guy casually walk up to a complete stranger next to me along a line or urinals one night at an upscale bar and, for no reason any of us could ever figure out, smash the occupied urinator's head into the wall two or three times as hard as he could).
Having said that, the couple of times I've tried it's possible but not particularly comfortable. Unlike eguns, I carry more towards my strong side so the gun is in a very similar location as when I carry AIWB. For me, it's the mag (not the gun) that is actually blocking Mr. Happy from a straight approach.
edited to add: Safariland just recently announced a new IWB holster that is adjustable enough that AIWB might be possible. Have only seen the picture from the announcement, but if someone gets his hands on one definitely let us know ...
Since someone was asking about SmartCarry, while I'm with Todd in being a firm believer in them, I would raise one potential issue to be aware of.
* After you've used it heavily for a while, in my case about a year, the SmartCarry begins to wear through the fabric down near the bottom of your holster, where the band reinforces it across the bottom. My holster wore through to the point that you could see daylight!
When I contacted the owner of the company, his response was rather disappointing: he openly admits this is a known issue, but advises SmartCarry customers to try duct tape. Well I did that, and it works and lasts for a few months, but that hardly seems like a very long-term or professional solution for a holster.
A better solution, if you really like the SmartCarry rig and want to use one long-term (and I do--I'm convinced of their usefulness for comfortable deep concealment), is to get a local seamstress, or holster maker, to reinforce that bottom portion of the holster and sew a leather strip or other reinforcement material across that area. For probably $15 to $20, you can have a permanent solution and still get the benefits of the holster.
I've heard of a number of customers using this solution, and I think I'm going to try it as well. I do wish, though, that the SmartCarry folks would get on the stick and offer an improved version of their products to solve this problem.
I have a new railed g19 in the pipeline. I am thinking seriously of going full bore with AIWB to include exploring a g19 with a light. perhaps with a TLR 3.
This AIWB stuff is going to make me buy a commander length 1911 before this is over as well as I think my g34/35 and 5 inch 1911s might be just a bit too long.
Thought and comments re the lighted AIWB are particularly welcome.
About three years ago, I carried a G19 AIWB with an X200 in a Blade-tech IWB configured for a straight drop. I carried this combination for a number of months. I found that for me, the additional length/width below the dust cover made for a decidedly suboptimal AIWB combination. The extra mass rubbed heavily against my strong side inner thigh, and was agony after a full day of carry, including sitting at a desk, walking around, entering and exiting vehicles, etc... For a short period of time, it was tolerable. After a full day, it was not. For a taller individual, it may work out fine. I'm 5'-9", and it was decidedly uncomfortable for me. (Read "uncomfortable" as creating raw spots in places I don't want them...) If anyone has found that AIWB works for them with a light, that would be a great topic for another thread.
I just noticed that on the Smart Carry site, they do directly mention this issue of wear in the front of the holster, and the old "duct tape" solution, or stitching on leather. I'd be curious to hear the reactions to this, from other folks who are also using Smartcarry. Have you used it long enough to see any wear? If you start to see this issue, do you plan to go the route of getting some leather stitched on?
From the Smarty Carry FAQ page:
Q: After wearing my SmartCarry® for several months, I notice some wear at the outside of the lower strong side of the holster. Is there any way I can stop the wear?
A: This wear is caused by the holster rubbing against your clothing, and yes, there is a way you can stop the wear and lengthen the life of your SmartCarry®. The fast and simple way is to put a piece of good quality 2" wide duct tape over the lower edge of the holster where the wear shows, with about 1/2" of the tape folded under and stuck to the back of the holster. Doesn't look good, but since only you or an intimate partner will ever see it, it really doesn't matter what it looks like, and the tape does the job of taking all the wear instead of the denim or duck cloth. Plus when the tape wears out you can replace it in minutes. For a real professional and permanent job, have a thin piece of leather sewn over the lower bottom of the holster, as some of our customers have done.
If the problem is common enough that they have multiple solutions being used by so many of their customers, one would think they might offer a "professional grade" version of the holster -- at a higher price -- which comes with the leather work already done.
(copied from another thread ... but I've revised the 'value' down from four to three due to the discussion about the wear)
Review of SmartCarry (http://www.smartcarry.com/index.html):
Comfort, when worn properly (very low) gets four out of five stars. It's clear you're wearing it and, depending on how you normally situate yourself down there it may get in the way a bit, but it's not at all uncomfortable. Actually, it feels almost exactly like wearing a fanny pack. The only slight hiccup is when you need to use a restroom ... getting it out of the way takes a little gymnastics and isn't particularly subtle if you're standing at a urinal.
Concealability I'll give five stars. My full size P30 is noticeable at the butt (gun's, not mine) if you know where to look but it could just as easily be something in a pocket, etc. The ability to carry a full size gun PLUS a spare magazine with a tucked-in shirt is pretty amazing. I feel like I could go just about anywhere (sans metal detectors) without being spotted.
Speed gets two stars. It's a lot faster than I expected once I got used to it, but it's definitely substantially slower than my Looper (http://www.shop.customcarryconcepts.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=10).
SmartCarry, standing:
2.05 sec average to first shot
range from 1.60 to 2.54 (SD of 0.36)
Looper + untucked polo, standing:
1.01 sec average to first shot
range from 0.87 to 1.16 (SD of 0.09)
SmartCarry, sitting:
2.19 sec average to first shot
range from 1.79 to 3.26 (SD of 0.45)
Looper + untucked polo, sitting:
1.31 sec average to first shot
range from 1.02 to 1.65 (SD of 0.20)
This was done with a stopwatch dry-fire, so the data is certainly not perfect. My wife's reaction time from hearing the click of the hammer to hitting the stop button also needs to get factored in. I was aiming at an 8" square at about 5yd distance.
The real difference is consistency, which in the SmartCarry's defense would probably improve if I practiced with it more and worked out some of the techniques better. Still, I was far more likely to fumble something with the SmartCarry. In one case, I had a sitting draw of 3.26 ... in comparison, I had a fumble during seated Looper draws that worked out to 1.63 and 1.65 ... both faster than the best I could do from the SmartCarry.
I'm going to try the same test again strong hand only at some point, because I think the SmartCarry will be noticeably harder to draw without being able to move the waistband out of the way.
Value gets three stars. Quality of material seems good. Because it's not gun-specific, I did need to take a safety pin and "size" the holster ... without that, the gun sat far too low and draw speed was pathetic. Price is almost identical to a standard Looper. (this score was reduced from four stars to three stars on 22-Jun-09 due to reports of wear after only a few months of regular use, and the manufacturer's do-it-yourself suggestions to fix it as opposed to making a design change to avoid the wear in the first place)
14/20 total rating from me.
Hello,
My main mode of carry is a Browning High Power in Andy Arratoonian's Model 28XS Crossdraw. I wear the 28XS strong-side thow, at about the 2 O'Clock/Appendix position. It makes for a really fast & natural draw and The Sleek High Power & Holster are easily concealed under normal fitting cloathing. My mags are carried weak side in a Double Mag Carrier by Rusty Sherrick.
Andy's Model 28 Crossdraw: http://www.holsters.org/crossdraw-holster.htm
Rusty's Double Mag Carrier: http://www.c-rusty.com/pages/other%20prod/magcariers.html
If the problem is common enough that they have multiple solutions being used by so many of their customers, one would think they might offer a "professional grade" version of the holster -- at a higher price -- which comes with the leather work already done.
Amen! I feel the same way, I've been bugging them for nearly two years get with it and offer an improved version. I'd think that many of their customers who are sold on the idea would gladly pay a few extra $$ for an upgrade; they really aren't that expensive anyway.
Nah. I'd actually trust a SmartCarry.
:cool:
Hahaha I just got the Looper in today. I did some dry fire in the basement and I love this thing. My stupid stop watch broke, but it definitely seemed much faster than my previous setup. I'm going to the range next Monday so I'll post the results when I'm done. Cheers
Newest generation prototype of the Garrity AIWB along with an appendix position mag pouch:
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/garritywedge-aiwb-gen3.jpg
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/garrity-appendixpouch.jpg
Brown cowhide with black elephant trim. Better pictures to follow ...
decodeddiesel
06-24-09, 09:45
Interesting. The material looks very nice indeed, and the design looks well thought out.
Newest generation prototype of the Garrity AIWB along with an appendix position mag pouch:
Brown cowhide with black elephant trim. Better pictures to follow ...
Very nice. Can't wait to see the front views of the holster and pouch. I'm guessing the pouch is horizontal?
Pouch is vertical with a cant (bullets forward, floorplate back).
Encouraged by this thread, I ordered a 2 O'Clock from Comp-Tac and have been trying out appendix carry (really more between the legs carry) for the past week or so with a Glock 19.
I am still very nervous about the striker-fired pistol in that position. It is reasonably concealable, and seems faster than my old position at 3:00. Comfort is extremely position sensitive, far more so 3:00 carry. A half-inch either way makes a very big difference.
For riding in the car, I've been lifting my shirt to run the lap belt behind the pistol on the theory that it's safer in the event of an accident. It's definitely more comfortable, but puts the lap belt an inch or two higher than it would otherwise be, so perhaps it's just a bad idea all the way around.
I have a question regarding the draw stroke. Drawing from 3:00, I was accustomed to index on the side of my chest with the pistol pointed forward before punching out. It doesn't seem to make sense to do this with a gun drawn from the front of the body because it involves pulling the pistol back. What do you guys do? Do you come up to the center of your chest, or just scoop it out and forward?
Todd, do you know if the Garrity appendix holsters are available yet? Sorry for being cryptic.
I am still very nervous about the striker-fired pistol in that position.
And you should be, because if you **** up, you will die.
My advice: don't **** up.
I have a question regarding the draw stroke. Drawing from 3:00, I was accustomed to index on the side of my chest with the pistol pointed forward before punching out. It doesn't seem to make sense to do this with a gun drawn from the front of the body because it involves pulling the pistol back. What do you guys do? Do you come up to the center of your chest, or just scoop it out and forward?
My hands meet at the same place regardless of the holster. For me, that's center of the chest at about nipple height about 8-12" forward of my body. If I need to, it' easy to bring the gun in closer for retention/close-range stuff.
Todd, do you know if these are available yet?
"these" = ?
Lagadelphia
07-06-09, 22:44
My hands meet at the same place regardless of the holster. For me, that's center of the chest at about nipple height about 8-12" forward of my body. If I need to, it' easy to bring the gun in closer for retention/close-range stuff.
This is pretty much how it works for me. Gun is up about nipple height anyways to clear the holster and rotates to the upright and forward towards target when my off hand meets my gun hand and then punch out.
The way I do it is pull cover shirt with off hand, draw with strong hand, when pistol is clear of shirt and is on the way up, release shirt and keep off hand's wrist/forearm against body as you move your off hand up with your rising draw stroke until they meet at center chest then punch out. For me, keeping my off hand in contact with my body during the draw assures me that I will not get my off hand ahead of my muzzle. Of course the booger hook doesn't get on the trigger until sights are on target and I am ready to fire.
I practice fairly regularily with a dry pistol and I've never had the trigger get pulled without me pulling it when I was wanting to. Same with reholstering. I haven't had any issues reholstering but I would be lying if I said that reholstering a live pistol carried AIWB doesn't make me a little nervous as compared to holstering at 3:00. It's a much more delicate proceedure for me :)
Todd, do you know if the Garrity appendix holsters are available yet?
See above
JohnN -- No, they're still in the development stage. We were pretty much done but then Garrity made an improvement that improves both the appearance and lowers the cost to produce the holster which means a lower cost to buy one. Now we're running through a few iterations of that to make sure it's 100%.
Todd, would you mind doing a pro/con of the Looper versus the Garrity in terms of stability, cant angle, and thickness?
Does anyone here use a 1.25" belt for AIWB? If it's not stable enough I may need to do a wilderness belt in 1.5".
mmx1 -- Once the final production version of the Garrity is available, I'll write something up comparing the two. At this stage, the Garrity is a shifting target.
MMX1 - I have seen no limitation due to a 1 1/4" belt supporting a CCC Looper Appendix style with a 4" 1911. I've been carrying it this way for over 5 months through normal office environment / social settings, including driving for up to 2 hours at a time with no discomfort or sagging. The belt is a DelFatti standard offering in terms of thickness and would be equivalent to the Beltman 1 1/4" leather in cowhide without additional stiffeners.
Cheers,
Pk
Hey guys question for you, I've been noticing that on the draw I'm not pulling my shirt directly up, but going more towards my dominant hand, basically sweeping up and then over to make sure the grip is free, is anybody else doing this? Part of the it is that I'm using a government model 1911 ( it's all I have at this point, don't worry Todd I'm getting some tactical tupperware soon) and the longer grip is giving me issues with some shirts so I started doing it this way each time. I don't know if this is a problem exactly, but it seems like excessive movement, any thoughts?
On a side note I realized I forgot to tell you guys that I sent my gun in to the factory for a problem with the duracoat on the slide so I haven't gone to the range yet so no AAR til it gets back from Springfield.
It sounds like you're grabbing at the middle of your shirt. I'd recommend instead reaching farther across your body so you can grab it right where the gun sits on your belt. My hand actually pulls up and then towards the center, so I clear a path for the gun and get my support hand right where I want it to meet the gun to form my 2-handed grip.
Thanks, that's what I was looking for.
dookie1481
07-18-09, 19:32
Todd - do you have a price or ETA on the Garrity holsters?
Jay
No ETA, and I wouldn't even venture to guess the price range.
I know the next prototype is in process. Until I've received that and had a chance to shake it out, we're still in the "Coming Soon" mode.
CaptainDooley
08-13-09, 01:04
Well, this has definitely given me food for thought. My current IWB rig, while adjustable for cant and ride height, will not adjust nearly enough to try appendix carry - so I'm torn between trying to get a Looper for my gov't sized 1911 or wait until the new year or so when I get an M&P9.
Mexican-Style appendix carry around the house this evening lets me know it can be done with my 1911, though exact placement will be the key to making it work and it will need to be nearly on the centerline. I even think it'll work with my 6' 250# physique.
Thanks for all the info guys and thanks Todd for starting this thread.
VMI-MO: Awesome feedback.
Ironically, the issue you have with the Looper's attachment method is its primary design purpose. Compared to the typical kydex holster "clips" that are so prone to breakage or simply coming out of the pants when wrestling over a pistol, the solid Looper loop pretty much means you need to tear the belt in half to get the gun away.
My gun doesn't go on & off multiple times a day, though, so for me the loss of convenience is outweighed by the security of the holster.
How do you get a straight cant with the Infidel?
Hey Todd, anything new on the Garrity AIWB?
Nope. Something about Garrity being a full-time cop and simultaneously trying to run a profitable holster-making business seems to be interfering with his focus on all the free holsters he's making me. The nerve of some people! :cool:
On another note, my P30's Looper is cracked. The back side of the "loop" cracked, so it's now more like a 360-degree clip than a solid loop. Still works, but over timeI expect the clip to break (which is why we used a loop in the first place). CCC is making me one out of thicker kydex to see if it will hold up to abuse better.
Nope. Something about Garrity being a full-time cop and simultaneously trying to run a profitable holster-making business seems to be interfering with his focus on all the free holsters he's making me. The nerve of some people! :cool:
On another note, my P30's Looper is cracked. The back side of the "loop" cracked, so it's now more like a 360-degree clip than a solid loop. Still works, but over timeI expect the clip to break (which is why we used a loop in the first place). CCC is making me one out of thicker kydex to see if it will hold up to abuse better.
I just ordered a looper yesterday. How long had you been using the holster before it cracked?
Mine had been:
1. Reheated and reshaped twice to "try something out" ... Thus significantly brittle-izing (it's a word now, dammit) the kydex right at the loop.
2. Abused repeatedly bydemonstrating how much more stress and flex it could withstand than a typical "clip on" holster.
I only discovered the crack because karma is a bitch. A student in my Los Alamos class this past weekend showed me how his appendix holster (different company) had cracked. So of course I had to brag about how indestructible MY holster was, and ... Dammit.
Also intrested in the new holster when it comes out, just subscribing :D
Has anyone seen or tried the Safariland model 18 IWB? Looks like it might be worth a try at AIWB. I think it is still relatively new.
sniperfrog
11-13-09, 21:32
Does anyone wear there AIWB at the 11:30 position. I found that this is more comfortable (for me) and it's easier to clear my shirt out of the way. It puts the grip right across my centerline. I was having a little trouble concealing my M&P when I wore it at 1:00 with just a t-shirt. I've done alot of dry practice and finally some live firing with the holster, a looper, at the 11:30 and it works pretty well. Anyone else try it there?
decodeddiesel
11-19-09, 10:52
Does anyone have experience with the High Noon Holsters "Public Secret"?
http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Product_Line/Public_Secret_Straps/public_secret_straps.html
Looks like a decent leather appendix carry holster.
Does anyone have experience with the High Noon Holsters "Public Secret"?
First impression looking at the link you provided: The shirt guard is too big. Anything that interferes with your strong hand getting a full, high grip on the pistol in the holster is a complete no-go. Also, all the extra leather and stitching between the trigger guard and muzzle needs to be trimmed; that is the part of the holster that will dig into your thigh and the smaller it is, the more comfortable the holster will be.
Also, in their photo, the holster is rotated funny to give the appearance of a true neutral cant. In fact, when you adjust the photo to level out the mouthband and loops, you can see that the pistol actually has a noticeable cant. This exacerbates that extra leather material I mentioned above, pushing it into the crease between the leg and groin.
http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/Public_Secret_Straps_Close_Up_copy.jpg
I've never used or even seen one of these holsters in person so the above comments are based solely on looking at the pic provided.
decodeddiesel
11-19-09, 12:56
I've never used or even seen one of these holsters in person so the above comments are based solely on looking at the pic provided.
Todd, if there is one person on this site who's "blind" opinion I would value most in a holster it would be yours.
You make a number of fine points. I am just trying to find a decent leather holster which would be optimized for appendix carry since the Garrity is not out yet.
Hey Todd, any news on the Garrity AIWB?
Hey Todd, any news on the Garrity AIWB?
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/garrity-AIWB-final1-350x233.jpg
I've been wearing it for a few days now and I like it. Still haven't taken it to the range or worn it on a long drive so I'm withholding final judgment.
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/garrity-AIWB-final2.jpg
Wow! I like the way it looks!!! Can't wait to read your write up.
For anyone who might have experience with it, what are the pros and cons of AIWB with a government sized 1911? I currently carry IWB at somewhere between 3-4 o'clock and would like to find an alternative when summer comes around and I'm down to shorts and a t-shirt.
I have carried 1911s AIWB. The advantages are the same as any gun, the disadvantages for me only that the 5"guns are a bit long in the barrel/slide for my comfort and the condition 1 can mess with your head a little carried AIWB. Commander length more comfortable.
The high "shirt guard" feature which Todd doesn't care for in the High Noon picture above have tended to work well for me as "skin guards". The 1911's hammer and ducktail/beavertail safetys can dig ya in AIWB. This will be more pronounced in the summer when you are cutting base layers. Without a skin guard, you may shed that AIWB 1911 pretty quick. Try it both ways and see for yourself. I prefer a holster without them - but in some applications I've found them pretty handy to have. I'm quite lean but I can only imagine this phenom is more pronounced for the less so.
And it isn't just the hammer guns. A striker fired gun with many of the quality rear sights have enough right angles to them to chew belly pretty good - again more so when it's really hot and it's just you "mano a front sight". Obviously the more square the rear sight the more likely it could be prone to chew up your belly.
I don't think you'll find a skin guard/sweat guard inhibit your draws much with a gun with a full sized grip like a 1911. I've never had an issue with them with a G27 much less G19 or 1911 anyway.
Edit - Todd makes excellent points below on the specific High Noon model. My experience with them is with Sidearmor and Bladetech primarily and even FIST which were more modest in the guards dimensions.
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