View Full Version : 18 people shot near El Paso Walmart, reports say
The_War_Wagon
08-03-19, 13:12
Brady-ite vultures descending in 3... 2... 1... (https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-active-shooter-walmart-mall) :mad:
Still an active scene, judging by FOX News coverage.
PatrioticDisorder
08-03-19, 13:28
Brady-ite vultures descending in 3... 2... 1... (https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-active-shooter-walmart-mall) :mad:
Still an active scene, judging by FOX News coverage.
Well, El Paso and multiple shooters makes me think possible cartel violence spilling over the border?
The_War_Wagon
08-03-19, 13:35
Well, El Paso and multiple shooters makes me think possible cartel violence spilling over the border?
That, and the Anqueefas just announced the other day, that THEY were "invading" El Paso. As Mycroft Holmes says of coincidence, "The universe is rarely so lazy"...
Border Patrol on scene in one video clip on msm, looked like a suppressor on his rifle.
Other than that typical msm. Repetition and fear mongering, speculation, and shifting ‘details’ as truth emerges.
Yeah, It's really muddy right now & will be sometime before we know the # of fatalities...up to 20 shot is the last I've seen reported. Highly doubt it's anything cartel related & likely another nut with his screw loose. One 21yr old male in custody reported by police & think he acted alone, but not ruling out multiple shooters. Mayor of El Paso is conflicting his CLEO saying multiple in custody so the dust is gonna have to settle. Some of the eye witness stories are really hard to hear. Crazy how often this shit is happening!!
Can't confirm the authenticity of the photo, but matches the description of eye witnesses...fwiw.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-19, 15:23
I would assume that they would cuff and stuff anyone with a CCW when they were clearing the building, and 2-3 would actually be low for the number of CCWers in a Texas Walmart. Occam's razor says that it is another kook-ku.
m24shooter
08-03-19, 15:25
Reported to be a Patrick Crusius from Allen, TX.
ETA: There's a four page manifesto. White nationalist, sympathetic to Christchurch shooter. Describes that he's doing it because the US is being invaded by Hispanics. Also details his selection of the AK and some other info.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-03-19, 15:31
Looks like another AK. Let’s hope Trump doesn’t get any ideas, but with the NRA in turmoil we better Start writing the Republicans in the senate.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-19, 15:32
Reported to be a Patrick Crusius from Allen, TX.
ETA: There's a four page manifesto. White nationalist, sympathetic to Christchurch shooter. Describes that he's doing it because the US is being invaded by Hispanics. Also details his selection of the AK and some other info.
https://www.ktsm.com/news/breaking-possible-active-shooter-at-walmart-near-cielo-vista-mall/
18 dead pic of shooter with AK and earpro.
BoringGuy45
08-03-19, 15:43
Shootings always come in clusters. One person does it, then someone else says "challenge accepted!" After last week's shooting, I knew another one would happen again soon.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-03-19, 15:52
Shootings always come in clusters. One person does it, then someone else says "challenge accepted!" After last week's shooting, I knew another one would happen again soon.
I was just thinking that. The media stirs up the kooks with the 24/7 attention. Like they did with serial killers back in the day.
Booker didn't take long to pick up the anti-gun ball...I see the narrative changing from racist orange man to blaming orange man for AK's.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-03-19, 16:03
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
PatrioticDisorder
08-03-19, 16:08
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
Stop giving them their fame, except for their execution and I believe their execution should be public and especially cruel and unusual, that is how you stop it.
Call me crazy, because I feel crazy for even thinking this, but every time I see one of these I think of the Bourne movie with Jeremy Renner where the scientist is part of a government experiment and just starts whacking everyone. I just believe that these are sponsored and a ass backwards way to get severe gun control enacted.
I know this sounds very tin foil hat-ish. I’m relatively OK with that.
platoonDaddy
08-03-19, 16:08
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
We can’t stop this, too many friggin WACKO’s, see u on the other side.
BoringGuy45
08-03-19, 16:13
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
We've become selfish and devalued human life. The people of this nation see themselves as the only important thing in their lives, and see other's worth simply in terms of utility to themselves. If they can provide no utility, they are regarded as worthless and disposable. It's all about me, me, me. We've devalued family and community and embraced misanthropy. We also have a message that whatever you choose to do is the right choice, because you made it, and nobody has the right to judge you. We've embraced antisocial personality as a favorable trait: People are your pawns, and if you think they're in your way, just kill them. We're also vain and narcissistic: The object of life is to become famous, even if that means becoming infamous. And while the level of extreme to go and shoot up a place may be rare, this toxic society has emboldened the people like this PODS to follow through with their desires to slaughter people.
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
Our idea for how to stop it, or greatly reduce it, is polar opposite of the their approach, and so little gets accomplished. People should not just be allowed to CCW in gun free zone etc, they should be encouraged to for starters.
Have the media agree at large to follow the policies of:
https://nonotoriety.com/
Reduce/address the Rhetoric :
Rhetoric and polarization of both sides, but mainly from the left, amping up tensions which triggers the loonies of both ends, but past few years, most of these shooters have been more left wing sympathizers, yet the media simply calls them white nationalists anyway.
More finger pointing will ensue, prayers sent, and more attempt to make a grab for Const Rights vs take any realistic long term view of it.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-03-19, 16:15
Honestly there is no way to stop it. I do believe they would fall out of fashion if they weren’t so heavily publicized but that won’t happen for obvious reasons. We also need to recall that they are rare, despite the cluster effect that was noted above. Given the massive size of our population and a hungry 24/7 news cycle they seem more common than they really are.
titsonritz
08-03-19, 16:16
We can’t stop this, too many friggin WACKO’s, see u on the other side.
The ****ed up part is they want tear down the 2nd, then what? Too many friggin WACKO’s will still be present.
jerrysimons
08-03-19, 16:22
Reported to be a Patrick Crusius from Allen, TX.
ETA: There's a four page manifesto. White nationalist, sympathetic to Christchurch shooter. Describes that he's doing it because the US is being invaded by Hispanics. Also details his selection of the AK and some other info.
Guys is obviously a massive, delusional idiot. In a nut shell it is white supremacy with kill “Hispanic invaders” and also reduce population to save the environment. At least he was captured instead of killed, an outcome he states would be worse than death.
This is a screwed world we live in. Ain’t giving up guns for that very reason.
m24shooter
08-03-19, 16:34
NO law enforcement fired any rounds.
SilverBullet432
08-03-19, 16:40
Bodies aren’t even cold yet and already that loser ass fake Mexican O’Rourke is regurgitating his anti gun agenda.
Stop giving them their fame, except for their execution and I believe their execution should be public and especially cruel and unusual, that is how you stop it.
Agree.
Neuter the media, quick trial, immediate public execution. Next?
However, since we’ve become this “kinder, gentler Nation”, none of that will happen.
It’s much easier to demonize the right and nullify our Constitution.
m24shooter
08-03-19, 16:45
Bodies aren’t even cold yet and already that loser ass fake Mexican O’Rourke is regurgitating his anti gun agenda.
Never let a tragedy go to waste.
SGT Gomez with EPD just did a presser where he gave no indication as to number of fatalities, but that there is at least one. Reports from news outlets are varying widely from 12 to 18 to 40.
m24shooter
08-03-19, 17:06
https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/patrick-crusius/?fbclid=IwAR0nJCP0FhnQYxUk8_77QNnXduOUhCoD_E1qIiQq8dcphf_INPJ1Mcwfd5Q
19 dead per the BBC. Massively different numbers depending on the source.
m24shooter
08-03-19, 17:10
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/sources-el-paso-shooter-has-ties-to-north-texas/287-47289e61-58b9-4663-b0ab-1de39f13fefc?fbclid=IwAR2R2Ij3o9SLAHn_0_tG6KAleLhTvX5uk7BVQOCc8RQPcPkyOYQGaeEHHdA
LE searching North Texas homes.
morbidbattlecry
08-03-19, 17:13
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
It's really a socioeconomic and health care issue. But any solution of that nature is screamed down by the right as super aids ulitmate socialism. And so it goes.
Stop giving them their fame, except for their execution and I believe their execution should be public and especially cruel and unusual, that is how you stop it.
Suggested modification made to M24’s post:
Reported to be a loser.
ETA: There's a four page manifesto. White nationalist, sympathetic to Christchurch shooter. Describes that he's doing it because the US is being invaded by Hispanics. Also details his selection of the AK and some other info.
Mods and fellow users: can we redact the loser’s name, number murdered, and pictures from posts, please?
Hammer_Man
08-03-19, 17:40
I wish these cowards would just shoot themselves. No need to shoot up a grocery store, school, or festival. Just do the world a favor, and swallow some lead for the rest of us.
I wish these cowards would just shoot themselves. No need to shoot up a grocery store, school, or festival. Just do the world a favor, and swallow some lead for the rest of us.
Well, it was reported that his manifesto said that being captured alive would be worse than death, yet apparently he surrendered without a fight. The officers knew who they were apprehending, given that fact that no shots were fired, pretty obvious he didn't desire to go down fighting.
Doc Safari
08-03-19, 17:48
I feel for the victims and hope the shooter burns in Hell. This is only going to get worse. You can't stop it.
The Rogues Gallery (Democrats) are already calling for more gun control.
My GF and I were proactive. We drove to a town about 45 miles from El Paso and walked out of Walmart with as much .223 and 9mm as we could carry. Sorry to go right to the practical side but I give it days if not hours before Walmart pulls all guns and ammo nationwide like Dick's. Not trying to start a panic but that's the political reality we live in.
I live about an hour and a half from the Walmart where the shooting took place. We almost drove to Cielo Vista mall right across from it today to go shopping. That was close. I may get drunk tonight.
Maybe that's why my post in this thread is a little agitated. I feel like staying home for like...a year.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190803/b7e4ea1d2754d0506f5e27c5a5e0a715.jpg
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The_War_Wagon
08-03-19, 18:14
Outstanding move by the Lt. Governor, since their (Anqueefa's) buddy done ruined it for them.
Texas Lt. Gov. tells Antifa to 'stay out' of El Paso after Walmart shooting (https://www.foxnews.com/media/texas-lt-gov-tells-antifa-to-stay-out-of-el-paso-after-walmart-shooting)
Doc Safari
08-03-19, 18:15
Outstanding move by the Lt. Governor, since their (Anqueefa's) buddy done ruined it for them.
Texas Lt. Gov. tells Antifa to 'stay out' of El Paso after Walmart shooting (https://www.foxnews.com/media/texas-lt-gov-tells-antifa-to-stay-out-of-el-paso-after-walmart-shooting)
Excellent!
MeanCarbine
08-03-19, 18:18
Shooter uploaded a manifesto blaming the Hispanic invasion of Texas for his actions. He used a WASR-10 in the shooting.
*If*, hypothetically speaking, I were a white nationalist (which I am not, but for the sake of this post...) I think I'd know that the smart play is to let the Left's own nation-destroying idiocy turn the public at large against them, and then present my ideology as a "reasonable" counterpoint to the disenfranchised cotizenry. NOT engage in stupid shit like this that will only serve to galvanize public opinion against the movement I claim to represent.
I'm *not* hinting that I think this is a false flag, I'm not going to start claiming that stupid conspiracies are at work here....but when you see stuff like this - high body count, WN shooter, uses an AK, leaves a very detailed manifesto behind - it's hard not to notice how "perfect" it is.
Although the *real* ideal outcome would likely be that the shooter isn't taken into custody alive. So in the end it probably is just some looney-tune who decided he was going to go kill a bunch of people.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-19, 18:40
I wish these cowards would just shoot themselves. No need to shoot up a grocery store, school, or festival. Just do the world a favor, and swallow some lead for the rest of us.
I think up until the last few years most mass shooters were suicides that decided to take a bunch of people with them before they died. That fix the facts the best in those cases.. To me the South Carolina shooter, was it inflection point where some kind of ideology started to creep into the crazy too. I really wonder how heartfelt and ingrained the ideology is here, or is it just a cover for the acts and a side symptom of the crazy. We also have to remember that the left has had their number of active shooters also from the congressional baseball game to a number of other ones including Dallas.
Well, it was reported that his manifesto said that being captured alive would be worse than death, yet apparently he surrendered without a fight. The officers knew who they were apprehending, given that fact that no shots were fired, pretty obvious he didn't desire to go down fighting.
That little bitch wore hearing protection while he was shooting people. Yeah I’d say he’s not in for pain avoidance.
*If*, hypothetically speaking, I were a white nationalist (which I am not, but for the sake of this post...) I think I'd know that the smart play is to let the Left's own nation-destroying idiocy turn the public at large against them, and then present my ideology as a "reasonable" counterpoint to the disenfranchised cotizenry. NOT engage in stupid shit like this that will only serve to galvanize public opinion against the movement I claim to represent.
I'm *not* hinting that I think this is a false flag, I'm not going to start claiming that stupid conspiracies are at work here....but when you see stuff like this - high body count, WN shooter, uses an AK, leaves a very detailed manifesto behind - it's hard not to notice how "perfect" it is.
Although the *real* ideal outcome would likely be that the shooter isn't taken into custody alive. So in the end it probably is just some looney-tune who decided he was going to go kill a bunch of people.
The Christchurch shooter was a different kind of cat. Almost like he was an agent provocateur when you looked at the social media and everything he left behind. Not saying he was antifa, but more really of a nihilist. Just wanting to watch it all burn. I don’t know if this guy was so sophisticated that he was operating at that christchurch guy frequency, or if he was just a knuckle dragger who liked the refrain from that guys song.
I think we can work out on ways to identify and to stop guys like this, but to try to rationalize what they did in some kind of normal framework is going to be impossible. They’re crazy. Just think crazy and you might be able to figure out the best way to stop them.
SilverBullet432
08-03-19, 19:22
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190803/b7e4ea1d2754d0506f5e27c5a5e0a715.jpg
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He definitely hates Hispanics and automation. Well shit, I’m a Hispanic Automation specialist...
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
How is that even a question?
More importantly why are you still posting on this forum?
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morbidbattlecry
08-03-19, 19:51
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
I'm sorry I don't understand your question. Then again I have been up since 4 am.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-19, 19:59
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
If you read his manifesto, his views on recycling would be more relevant.
Prayers for those affected.
That said, freedom is dangerous, be prepared. I’ll take the chances and remain free. I’m not giving up my rights.
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
WT actual F? Oh, you must not be an American. Sucks for you.
Voodoochild
08-03-19, 20:11
Keep it civil and on topic. I'm curious as to what we will find out about this shit birds background. If there were any missed signs or had he been on anyone's radar before this.
An Undocumented Worker
08-03-19, 20:24
Based on your average sterotypes of Texas, everyone including grandma on the hoverround packs heat and yet this wackjob kills almost 20 people. WTF Texas?
Based on your average sterotypes of Texas, everyone including grandma on the hoverround packs heat and yet this wackjob kills almost 20 people. WTF Texas?
Normal people don't got to Walmart............
I have come to the conclusion within the general population at-large, there is lots of mental illness; some never act out, some have quirks which set them off and others who are emotionally and mentally defective to the point where they can't function in society. Every last one can snap, it's just a matter of the trigger. You see it in road rage, people cutting in line at the grocery store, domestic abuse, murder and mass murder. Mental illness doesn't have to present itself in violence, just weird behavior based on social norms.
In a free and open society of 325 million + population with the opportunity for gun ownership, you'll have these incidents. The media and everyone else are wringing their hands as to why it happens and what can be done to prevent it. On a massive scale, you can do nothing about it unless you have a command and control government involved in every aspect of your existence. Outside of that, the alternative for the average citizen is to rat out their neighbor or family member - See something, Say something. For me that isn't ideal either.
Some have offered public executions as a curb to such behavior. That will only affect the sane person who might have some thoughts about mass violence. The mentally ill population wouldn't be influenced at all.
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
I am sure whatever you have in mind wouldn't have prevented him from killing, but would forever be detrimental for anyone not wanting to cause others harm.
Coal Dragger
08-03-19, 20:41
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
1.) We have a lot of assholes living here.
2.) People are assholes, see number 1.
3.) Realistically you cannot stop them all.
In this instance we are observing the results of an ignorant, cowardly asshole taking it upon himself to address what he sees as a problem because his perception is that the government is not. The problem being illegal invasion/immigration by foreigners, and his unfortunately accurate perception that the US government is basically doing nothing effective to stop it.
I don’t live near our southern border, but I cannot help but observe as a relative outsider looking in at the border situation, that we as a nation are on the brink of violent civil unrest because of the lack of law enforcement in regards to what many view as an invasion of the country by criminals. I’m not advocating the position, just stating that it exists. People are only going to tolerate so much before they decide to take care of things themselves, and that is usually really ugly, and tragic. Like this instance.
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.Sooo.....you can read minds? How does anyone know you're not up to something similar
I have come to the conclusion within the general population at-large, there is lots of mental illness; some never act out, some have quirks which set them off and others who are emotionally and mentally defective to the point where they can't function in society. Every last one can snap, it's just a matter of the trigger. You see it in road rage, people cutting in line at the grocery store, domestic abuse, murder and mass murder. Mental illness doesn't have to present itself in violence, just weird behavior based on social norms.
In a free and open society of 325 million + population with the opportunity for gun ownership, you'll have these incidents. The media and everyone else are wringing their hands as to why it happens and what can be done to prevent it. On a massive scale, you can do nothing about it unless you have a command and control government involved in every aspect of your existence. Outside of that, the alternative for the average citizen is to rat out their neighbor or family member - See something, Say something. For me that isn't ideal either.
Some have offered public executions as a curb to such behavior. That will only affect the sane person who might have some thoughts about mass violence. The mentally ill population wouldn't be influenced at all.
Prisons have as much governmental control as any statist wants, but every crime one can think of occurs there so more .gov control isn't the answer.
I assume private sector crime (at least of the actual victim variety) may have been lower in 1940's Germany, Stalinist Russia, Mao's China, North Korea, and some other utopian societies, but the powers that be there certainly took up the slack.
Dude mentioned picking a soft target so changing that would seem to go a long way towards stopping many ofvthess incidents.
Averageman
08-03-19, 21:12
This has already gone political.
This has already gone political.
It was political before it even happened. They couldn’t use the California shooting because it didn’t for the narrative. They will try and use this. No doubt.
At this point I am convinced these are all false flag operations. A Q drop from 7/30 warned of something like this. Even though it predicted it within 24 hours, I’m certain he was referring to today.
This page from 2006 book “Behold A Pale Horse” has been cited many times.
58343
Averageman
08-03-19, 21:44
I'm curious how MSNBC knows this is White Nationalism?
People are only going to tolerate so much before they decide to take care of things themselves, and that is usually really ugly, and tragic. Like this instance.
Yep, we've got a real disorganized charlie foxtrot going on here. All the things you stated about the government, perceptions, and reality. Mostly it's....
1.) We have a lot of assholes living here.
2.) People are assholes, see number 1.
It gets even worse when many of the assholes run the government and news media.
On a side note, I get the numbers game and the cycle of emotions, the state of our politics and all that. What I just can not accept are these nut cases that just up and cash in the chips. How friggin' crazy do you have to be... I mean just day to day living strange kinda person... who totally off the chart decides to cash it all in and not one, two, but out of the woodwork like roaches. How can this many people decided to do this especially after they see what happens to everyone that tries. It just seems like to me there is a piece of the puzzle missing. Beyond the times, the numbers, the odds and all that.
It was political before it even happened.
Amen.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-19, 22:02
I'm curious how MSNBC knows this is White Nationalism?
If you read his manifesto he leaves a schmorgoshbord of possible reasons, it’s almost like a Rorschach test for what you want to see.
It was political before it even happened. They couldn’t use the California shooting because it didn’t for the narrative. They will try and use this. No doubt.
At this point I am convinced these are all false flag operations. A Q drop from 7/30 warned of something like this. Even though it predicted it within 24 hours, I’m certain he was referring to today.
This page from 2006 book “Behold A Pale Horse” has been cited many times.
58343
Wasn’t Behold A Pale Horse published in 1991?
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Averageman
08-03-19, 22:11
Nobody seems to mention the whole sphere of issues he mentioned or that he clearly mentioned both parties were guilty or that part of his reasoning was environmentalism.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-03-19, 22:20
Nobody seems to mention the whole sphere of issues he mentioned or that he clearly mentioned both parties were guilty or that part of his reasoning was environmentalism.
And specifically said Trump was not that the reason why he did it ....
But never mind..
It could be the shooter's Dad or Grandfather is a new age medicine man wacko:
Bryan Crusius is a licensed therapist, energy and sound medicine practitioner. He practices a unique synthesis of traditional talk therapy with multiple energy modalities. In November of 2013, he began Infused Being Recovery Therapy. This protocol infuses spiritual principles, sound healing, guided meditation, life force energy, and other eclectic methods with traditional talk therapy. His approach is specifically designed to discover and transcend the set of limited beliefs that control a client's thoughts, feelings, and actions. He lives in Allen, Texas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFicoeZNxbA
SomeOtherGuy
08-03-19, 22:28
At this point I am convinced these are all false flag operations. A Q drop from 7/30 warned of something like this. Even though it predicted it within 24 hours, I’m certain he was referring to today.
https://archive.fo/ZWWb3#selection-435.0-443.128
“I heard the shots but I thought they were hits, like roof construction,” said Adriana Quezada, 39, who was in the women’s clothing section of Walmart with her two children.
Quezada said she saw four men, dressed in black, moving together firing guns indiscriminately. Police confirmed only one gunman.
Named eyewitness, very clear statement.
It seems like every single mass shooting has reports of multiple gunmen. I understand confusion and mistaken eyewitnesses, but multiple mistaken eyewitnesses every single time? That does not seem likely.
As noted Walmart should have tons of camera footage. I will be very curious if ALL of it is released. Speaking of which, when do we get to see ALL of the Las Vegas footage?
I have come to the conclusion within the general population at-large, there is lots of mental illness; some never act out, some have quirks which set them off and others who are emotionally and mentally defective to the point where they can't function in society. Every last one can snap, it's just a matter of the trigger. You see it in road rage, people cutting in line at the grocery store, domestic abuse, murder and mass murder. Mental illness doesn't have to present itself in violence, just weird behavior based on social norms.
In a free and open society of 325 million + population with the opportunity for gun ownership, you'll have these incidents. The media and everyone else are wringing their hands as to why it happens and what can be done to prevent it. On a massive scale, you can do nothing about it unless you have a command and control government involved in every aspect of your existence. Outside of that, the alternative for the average citizen is to rat out their neighbor or family member - See something, Say something. For me that isn't ideal either.
Some have offered public executions as a curb to such behavior. That will only affect the sane person who might have some thoughts about mass violence. The mentally ill population wouldn't be influenced at all.
While there is a strong element of truth to that, I have ZERO problems executing---publicly if necessary---the "criminally insane". None whatsoever (assuming they have killed someone).
Many of us don't like to admit it, and it would never be publicly acknowledged, but the death penalty is payback, retribution, etc. I don't have any moral qualms about. Take a life in cold blood, and you forfeit yours; I don't give a damn if they're siiiiick or "need help". Fvck them.
WTF is wrong with America? WTF is wrong with people? How do we stop this?
This isn't new. Do you know how long it took before the Bath School massacre no longer held the body count record?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
The uncontrolled reporting of events by the drive by media like this just encourage more copy cats. The mews media needs a blackout...soon.
It could be the shooter's Dad or Grandfather is a new age medicine man wacko:
Wait a second... are you saying you have never been through Infused Being Recovery Therapy? What the hell does that even mean!
Unfu**ingbelievable.... well, that supports my "missing piece of the puzzle" if it's real. Vid has gone missing. It's scrub a dub dub time. Brainwashed his child? If he is a professional I'm guessing there has been a lot of DIY home schooling going on too.
All kinds of evil in this world. Maybe this is the new "Catholic Priest and little boys". Corrupt the child in an undesired family situation?
RioGrandeGreen
08-03-19, 23:31
Woke up to emergency notifications going off on my phone and buddies calling about this piece of shit killing innocent people in the city I call home. I had to have a talk with my sons about being alert when out in public and staying off the phone. I also told them my main responsibility is to get them to safety but if a shooter is in front of me I would shoot the motherf#cker. Talk to your family about an emergency plan about situations like this. Always carry concealed. Get some good training with guns and medical. Have med kits in your vehicles. Read Pat Mac's Sentinel book.
El Paso is a pretty nice place to live, friendly people, laid back kind of life. I pray for those we lost and injured.
May this piece of shits cheeks get clapped by a BBC in prison before he is executed or put in him in general population in El Paso county jail.
Wait a second... are you saying you have never been through Infused Being Recovery Therapy? What the hell does that even mean!
Unfu**ingbelievable.... well, that supports my "missing piece of the puzzle" if it's real. Vid has gone missing. It's scrub a dub dub time. Brainwashed his child? If he is a professional I'm guessing there has been a lot of DIY home schooling going on too.
All kinds of evil in this world. Maybe this is the new "Catholic Priest and little boys". Corrupt the child in an undesired family situation?
Yep, pulled by either YouTube or the channel owner. Lots of antisemitic comments on the video because of the Star of David bookshelf behind the "healer". The Kabbalah Cult also uses the same symbol.
This isn't new. Do you know how long it took before the Bath School massacre no longer held the body count record?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
Not new but look at the dates, numbers, and occurrences. It's 4:1 or maybe 5:2 on a 70 year look back. Granted there are a lot more people around these days so you expect more situations. However if you have a body count of 50 from 75 years ago and then within the last 10 years you get several body counts of 30, 40, what ever. It's not the score, it's how often the scores are happening.
PatrioticDisorder
08-04-19, 00:44
Woke up to emergency notifications going off on my phone and buddies calling about this piece of shit killing innocent people in the city I call home. I had to have a talk with my sons about being alert when out in public and staying off the phone. I also told them my main responsibility is to get them to safety but if a shooter is in front of me I would shoot the motherf#cker. Talk to your family about an emergency plan about situations like this. Always carry concealed. Get some good training with guns and medical. Have med kits in your vehicles. Read Pat Mac's Sentinel book.
El Paso is a pretty nice place to live, friendly people, laid back kind of life. I pray for those we lost and injured.
May this piece of shits cheeks get clapped by a BBC in prison before he is executed or put in him in general population in El Paso county jail.
Since you know there area, would this wal-mart likely have 30.06 signage banning concealed carry? I also heard that your governor recently signed legislation doing away with the 30.06 nonsense very recently but goes into effect 09/01? Kinda lousy timing...
RioGrandeGreen
08-04-19, 01:14
Since you know there area, would this wal-mart likely have 30.06 signage banning concealed carry? I also heard that your governor recently signed legislation doing away with the 30.06 nonsense very recently but goes into effect 09/01? Kinda lousy timing...
Sorry, I don't know. I don't pay attention to signs. I can carry everywhere.
Sorry bro, I didn't mean to be arrogant. Just raising a glass of Buffalo Trace for the ones we lost.
Not new but look at the dates, numbers, and occurrences. It's 4:1 or maybe 5:2 on a 70 year look back. Granted there are a lot more people around these days so you expect more situations. However if you have a body count of 50 from 75 years ago and then within the last 10 years you get several body counts of 30, 40, what ever. It's not the score, it's how often the scores are happening.
I actually did a little research on the topic.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?121974-Why-There-Will-Always-Be-Gun-Ban-Efforts-And-What-To-Do-About-It
Please note the link about school killings that predate the establishment of our country. Now don't get me wrong, I fully get Columbine seemed to start a new trend, but honestly if you look at all of it, it's always been there but with a Charles Whitman who comes along every decade or so.
I have come to the conclusion within the general population at-large, there is lots of mental illness; some never act out, some have quirks which set them off and others who are emotionally and mentally defective to the point where they can't function in society. Every last one can snap, it's just a matter of the trigger. You see it in road rage, people cutting in line at the grocery store, domestic abuse, murder and mass murder. Mental illness doesn't have to present itself in violence, just weird behavior based on social norms.
In a free and open society of 325 million + population with the opportunity for gun ownership, you'll have these incidents. The media and everyone else are wringing their hands as to why it happens and what can be done to prevent it. On a massive scale, you can do nothing about it unless you have a command and control government involved in every aspect of your existence. Outside of that, the alternative for the average citizen is to rat out their neighbor or family member - See something, Say something. For me that isn't ideal either.
Some have offered public executions as a curb to such behavior. That will only affect the sane person who might have some thoughts about mass violence. The mentally ill population wouldn't be influenced at all.
More normal people carrying concealed and willing to stop these nut jobs. Thats what can be done!
Well, this post I am about to make won't be popular or well received so let me caveat it thusly:
Shooting up places like a Columbine Kid is morally, ethically, and legally wrong and should be discouraged.
That said, don't be too quick to do the mandatory 15 minutes of politicized hate. If you think about it, this lashing out is inevitable. More and more the white kids are being told how lame they are, how unhip they are, how wrong they are, and how they should be ashamed for things they never did in an era they never lived. Go read a modern elementary textbook. Meanwhile you do see a lot of preference and deference given to people coming over illegal, pumping out kids, getting guaranteed housing, guaranteed aid, and have people championing their "right" to be here illegally while they take the low skill jobs away and funnel money to Mexico.
Meanwhile you have people, White people let's be real here, who work their asses off, never seem to "qualify" for any assistance, never get to have their first kid until their 30s, and have to work twice as hard to get half the benefit. It does feel like at times that we've replaced Jim Crow with a De Facto James Dove. A LOT of young people today coming of age are NOT Millenials. You old farts can lay off the Millenials. 1999 was a LONG TIME AGO. Your "average" Millenial is almost 40. It's Gen Z's time to shine and they have a lot less to look forward to. Gen X and the Millenials had parents who by and large could set them up a little. Gen Z's aid comes between Shit and Syphilis.
Ever see Falling Down? Gen Z is NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE. The white voting block isnt important anymore. The Illegal and "Minority" votes are and are the easiest to get. A LOT of hardshell strongholds have gone blue. Texas is very much next. No amount of 10 gallon hats, oversized belt buckles, and BIG TEXAS RIGS is changing the fact that "Mexicans" are piling in by the literal truckload daily. They want free shit, they want a place to drop anchor babies, and they want YOU to pay for it.
In a way it's like that Ayn Rand book Anthem where people are so stripped of their identity that they have to wait until nightfall to scream in anonymity in fear of Re-education as their only surcease.
So you are going to see more of this. Get used to it. Welcome to the new Lost Generation.
I feel like if people hadnt been dollar chasing, engaging in over protacted wars, and gave a damn about their national sovereignty and borders and demanded other nations to respect it; we would HAVE something to give to Gen Z and it wouldnt be so hopeless for them.
We have no jobs for them.
We have almost encouraged racialism towards them
We have dickwhipped them into thinking they can never be correct.
We have never honestly helped them.
We rob from them in taxes and smugly give to the unworthy then kiss our own asses for it.
We constantly tell them the future does not include them.
We use the phrase "there is no place for ______ in this country" for the tools they need to nerely survive.
So may God damn us, and hopefully one day forgive us, for cornering these young people and doing everything to them but giving them an out that didnt involve submission, prostration, or assimilation into a society they had no stake or agency in, yet was allowed to dictate their lifepath before they were born.
They just wanted jobs, homes, communities and families. And we gave those things to everybody EXCEPT them.
Again, God damn us for that.
titsonritz
08-04-19, 05:23
Well shit, when it rain it pours...
Police said nine people were killed and at least 16 more were injured in an early Sunday shooting in downtown Dayton, Ohio, less than a day after a deadly mass shooting in El Paso, Texas.
Dayton assistant police chief Matt Carper announced in an early morning press conference the shooter was shot dead by responding police offers and they are working to identify the suspect.
Carper said as he does not believe there is a remaining threat to the public, but authorities are still investigating and the FBI is on the scene to assist. Carper also said the shooter was firing a "long gun" with multiple rounds.
Nine people shot dead in Dayton, Ohio (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/multiple-people-reportedly-shot-in-dayton-ohio)
Well, this post I am about to make won't be popular or well received so let me caveat it thusly:...
Nobody likes tough, obvious, complicated TRUTH. Defining ourselves by being "nice" or "good" has led us to this...
I wonder if the fall of Rome has any lessons for us here?
Dennis.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Well, this post I am about to make won't be popular or well received so let me caveat it thusly:
Shooting up places like a Columbine Kid is morally, ethically, and legally wrong and should be discouraged.
That said, don't be too quick to do the mandatory 15 minutes of politicized hate. If you think about it, this lashing out is inevitable. More and more the white kids are being told how lame they are, how unhip they are, how wrong they are, and how they should be ashamed for things they never did in an era they never lived. Go read a modern elementary textbook. Meanwhile you do see a lot of preference and deference given to people coming over illegal, pumping out kids, getting guaranteed housing, guaranteed aid, and have people championing their "right" to be here illegally while they take the low skill jobs away and funnel money to Mexico.
Meanwhile you have people, White people let's be real here, who work their asses off, never seem to "qualify" for any assistance, never get to have their first kid until their 30s, and have to work twice as hard to get half the benefit. It does feel like at times that we've replaced Jim Crow with a De Facto James Dove. A LOT of young people today coming of age are NOT Millenials. You old farts can lay off the Millenials. 1999 was a LONG TIME AGO. Your "average" Millenial is almost 40. It's Gen Z's time to shine and they have a lot less to look forward to. Gen X and the Millenials had parents who by and large could set them up a little. Gen Z's aid comes between Shit and Syphilis.
Ever see Falling Down? Gen Z is NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE. The white voting block isnt important anymore. The Illegal and "Minority" votes are and are the easiest to get. A LOT of hardshell strongholds have gone blue. Texas is very much next. No amount of 10 gallon hats, oversized belt buckles, and BIG TEXAS RIGS is changing the fact that "Mexicans" are piling in by the literal truckload daily. They want free shit, they want a place to drop anchor babies, and they want YOU to pay for it.
In a way it's like that Ayn Rand book Anthem where people are so stripped of their identity that they have to wait until nightfall to scream in anonymity in fear of Re-education as their only surcease.
So you are going to see more of this. Get used to it. Welcome to the new Lost Generation.
I feel like if people hadnt been dollar chasing, engaging in over protacted wars, and gave a damn about their national sovereignty and borders and demanded other nations to respect it; we would HAVE something to give to Gen Z and it wouldnt be so hopeless for them.
We have no jobs for them.
We have almost encouraged racialism towards them
We have dickwhipped them into thinking they can never be correct.
We have never honestly helped them.
We rob from them in taxes and smugly give to the unworthy then kiss our own asses for it.
We constantly tell them the future does not include them.
We use the phrase "there is no place for ______ in this country" for the tools they need to nerely survive.
So may God damn us, and hopefully one day forgive us, for cornering these young people and doing everything to them but giving them an out that didnt involve submission, prostration, or assimilation into a society they had no stake or agency in, yet was allowed to dictate their lifepath before they were born.
They just wanted jobs, homes, communities and families. And we gave those things to everybody EXCEPT them.
Again, God damn us for that.
Dude...fantastic post. It’s a sad state we find ourselves in, but you are 100% correct.
Well, this post I am about to make won't be popular or well received so let me caveat it thusly:
Shooting up places like a Columbine Kid is morally, ethically, and legally wrong and should be discouraged.
That said, don't be too quick to do the mandatory 15 minutes of politicized hate. If you think about it, this lashing out is inevitable. More and more the white kids are being told how lame they are, how unhip they are, how wrong they are, and how they should be ashamed for things they never did in an era they never lived. Go read a modern elementary textbook. Meanwhile you do see a lot of preference and deference given to people coming over illegal, pumping out kids, getting guaranteed housing, guaranteed aid, and have people championing their "right" to be here illegally while they take the low skill jobs away and funnel money to Mexico.
Meanwhile you have people, White people let's be real here, who work their asses off, never seem to "qualify" for any assistance, never get to have their first kid until their 30s, and have to work twice as hard to get half the benefit. It does feel like at times that we've replaced Jim Crow with a De Facto James Dove. A LOT of young people today coming of age are NOT Millenials. You old farts can lay off the Millenials. 1999 was a LONG TIME AGO. Your "average" Millenial is almost 40. It's Gen Z's time to shine and they have a lot less to look forward to. Gen X and the Millenials had parents who by and large could set them up a little. Gen Z's aid comes between Shit and Syphilis.
Ever see Falling Down? Gen Z is NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE. The white voting block isnt important anymore. The Illegal and "Minority" votes are and are the easiest to get. A LOT of hardshell strongholds have gone blue. Texas is very much next. No amount of 10 gallon hats, oversized belt buckles, and BIG TEXAS RIGS is changing the fact that "Mexicans" are piling in by the literal truckload daily. They want free shit, they want a place to drop anchor babies, and they want YOU to pay for it.
In a way it's like that Ayn Rand book Anthem where people are so stripped of their identity that they have to wait until nightfall to scream in anonymity in fear of Re-education as their only surcease.
So you are going to see more of this. Get used to it. Welcome to the new Lost Generation.
I feel like if people hadnt been dollar chasing, engaging in over protacted wars, and gave a damn about their national sovereignty and borders and demanded other nations to respect it; we would HAVE something to give to Gen Z and it wouldnt be so hopeless for them.
We have no jobs for them.
We have almost encouraged racialism towards them
We have dickwhipped them into thinking they can never be correct.
We have never honestly helped them.
We rob from them in taxes and smugly give to the unworthy then kiss our own asses for it.
We constantly tell them the future does not include them.
We use the phrase "there is no place for ______ in this country" for the tools they need to nerely survive.
So may God damn us, and hopefully one day forgive us, for cornering these young people and doing everything to them but giving them an out that didnt involve submission, prostration, or assimilation into a society they had no stake or agency in, yet was allowed to dictate their lifepath before they were born.
They just wanted jobs, homes, communities and families. And we gave those things to everybody EXCEPT them.
Again, God damn us for that.
Well said sir, well said.
The_War_Wagon
08-04-19, 06:42
Dude...fantastic post. It’s a sad state we find ourselves but you are 100% correct.
I'll second this - it's spot-on, how political racism ("opportunism" :rolleyes: ) against white kids has done this. "Drugging them into 'normalcy'" clearly ain't cuttin' it. :mad:
I'll second this - it's spot-on, how political racism ("opportunism" :rolleyes: ) against white kids has done this. "Drugging them into 'normalcy'" clearly ain't cuttin' it. :mad:
Look at all those vying for the Democratic presidential nomination - every single one of them have been railing on white people for being white. And this supposed to bring us all together? If you think this country was divided by and during Obama's presidency just imagine what it will be if one of those bigoted communists get elected.
Wasn’t Behold A Pale Horse published in 1991?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You may be right, my PDF version only has the 2006 printing date.
Whiskey_Bravo
08-04-19, 07:30
Great post Firefly.
Outlander Systems
08-04-19, 07:32
Big media maximizing click farming by inciting mental terror and sowing discord is the reason we have more shooters than ever today.
just a scout
08-04-19, 08:18
And then there’s this:
Dayton, Ohio, shooting leaves 9 dead, 26 injured; suspect shot to death by cops, police say
https://www.foxnews.com/us/at-least-10-may-be-dead-in-dayton-ohio-gunfire-reports
Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at http://www.foxnews.com/apps-products/index.html.
Funny how every time there’s bad news for Democrats, like Mueller, the debates, etc. this stuff really picks up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Well, this post I am about to make won't be popular or well received so let me caveat it thusly:
Shooting up places like a Columbine Kid is morally, ethically, and legally wrong and should be discouraged.
That said, don't be too quick to do the mandatory 15 minutes of politicized hate. If you think about it, this lashing out is inevitable. More and more the white kids are being told how lame they are, how unhip they are, how wrong they are, and how they should be ashamed for things they never did in an era they never lived. Go read a modern elementary textbook. Meanwhile you do see a lot of preference and deference given to people coming over illegal, pumping out kids, getting guaranteed housing, guaranteed aid, and have people championing their "right" to be here illegally while they take the low skill jobs away and funnel money to Mexico.
Meanwhile you have people, White people let's be real here, who work their asses off, never seem to "qualify" for any assistance, never get to have their first kid until their 30s, and have to work twice as hard to get half the benefit. It does feel like at times that we've replaced Jim Crow with a De Facto James Dove. A LOT of young people today coming of age are NOT Millenials. You old farts can lay off the Millenials. 1999 was a LONG TIME AGO. Your "average" Millenial is almost 40. It's Gen Z's time to shine and they have a lot less to look forward to. Gen X and the Millenials had parents who by and large could set them up a little. Gen Z's aid comes between Shit and Syphilis.
Ever see Falling Down? Gen Z is NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE. The white voting block isnt important anymore. The Illegal and "Minority" votes are and are the easiest to get. A LOT of hardshell strongholds have gone blue. Texas is very much next. No amount of 10 gallon hats, oversized belt buckles, and BIG TEXAS RIGS is changing the fact that "Mexicans" are piling in by the literal truckload daily. They want free shit, they want a place to drop anchor babies, and they want YOU to pay for it.
In a way it's like that Ayn Rand book Anthem where people are so stripped of their identity that they have to wait until nightfall to scream in anonymity in fear of Re-education as their only surcease.
So you are going to see more of this. Get used to it. Welcome to the new Lost Generation.
I feel like if people hadnt been dollar chasing, engaging in over protacted wars, and gave a damn about their national sovereignty and borders and demanded other nations to respect it; we would HAVE something to give to Gen Z and it wouldnt be so hopeless for them.
We have no jobs for them.
We have almost encouraged racialism towards them
We have dickwhipped them into thinking they can never be correct.
We have never honestly helped them.
We rob from them in taxes and smugly give to the unworthy then kiss our own asses for it.
We constantly tell them the future does not include them.
We use the phrase "there is no place for ______ in this country" for the tools they need to nerely survive.
So may God damn us, and hopefully one day forgive us, for cornering these young people and doing everything to them but giving them an out that didnt involve submission, prostration, or assimilation into a society they had no stake or agency in, yet was allowed to dictate their lifepath before they were born.
They just wanted jobs, homes, communities and families. And we gave those things to everybody EXCEPT them.
Again, God damn us for that.
I agree with your premise. But "We" amigo? I know you're speaking about us collectively as a nation (or what can loosely be described as a nation) and society, but I have NEVER agreed with that garbage, voted for it, and will always defiantly shoot the bird at it. I feel ZERO responsibility for what occurred 150+ years ago, or even 60 years ago. Those whining weren't subject to it, so to me their claims are worthless and distracting from the larger issues the thug culture propagates. Likewise the elevation of ILLEGAL scum to some honored and protected status sickens me. I do NOT welcome them, will NEVER welcome them, and will always do my best to see to it that they are A) sent the fvck back, and B) NEVER get the right to vote if they end up staying.
However, I am but one vote, one voice seemingly drowned out by the screeching of the Left. I'm sure we all feel that way. I am also not a Gen Z'er, so the dick-whipping taking place in young minds is lost on me as I'm old[er] and sure as hell set in my ways; they ain't gonna change me or my thinking, and shame isn't a trait I carry.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-04-19, 09:06
And then there’s this:
Dayton, Ohio, shooting leaves 9 dead, 26 injured; suspect shot to death by cops, police say
https://www.foxnews.com/us/at-least-10-may-be-dead-in-dayton-ohio-gunfire-reports
Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at http://www.foxnews.com/apps-products/index.html.
Funny how every time there’s bad news for Democrats, like Mueller, the debates, etc. this stuff really picks up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I attribute this more to copy cat-ism. The MSM will often inflate or obscure stuff to fit an agenda- look how they buried the guy with guns and bombs at ICE, but When something of this scale happens, twice, that’s just crazies trying to get in on the jack pot.
I don’t know if you could develop a program more effective and efficient than the modern education and social system when it comes to screwing up little boys. From the seemingly innocuous shift of emphasizing language over math all the way to full on leftist propaganda- A kid under the age of twenty has heard nothing that white men are evil and are the cause of all the problems. And not only has this affected white males, it has effected how those kids are treated by their peers. That 1 in 10,000,000 would act our violently isn’t crazy. The left made these monsters and then lays them at our doorstep and blames us.
You want a correlation with mass shootings, it ain’t the number of guns, it’s the rise of crazy leftist social theory being adopted while objective, individual rights based values are being assassinated. He’ll, look at how the crazies took out Mario Lopez last week.
I need a shipping address for Firefly so I can send him a case of whatever he drinks. Same for colddeadhand above. There has been an all out culture war against white males for the last 30 years at least. This is what happens when you try "social engineering" to overcome biological coding. We are heading for tough times.
Hammer_Man
08-04-19, 09:27
I had to put my tin foil hat on before posting this, but it seems strange how these mass shooters come out of the woodwork when the Dems are having problems. The Mueller report made them look like fools, and opened up the possibility of their own being investigated.
m24shooter
08-04-19, 09:28
It could be the shooter's Dad or Grandfather is a new age medicine man wacko:
Bryan Crusius is a licensed therapist, energy and sound medicine practitioner. He practices a unique synthesis of traditional talk therapy with multiple energy modalities. In November of 2013, he began Infused Being Recovery Therapy. This protocol infuses spiritual principles, sound healing, guided meditation, life force energy, and other eclectic methods with traditional talk therapy. His approach is specifically designed to discover and transcend the set of limited beliefs that control a client's thoughts, feelings, and actions. He lives in Allen, Texas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFicoeZNxbA
If you look up his license, his work address is listed as Plano ISD. The kid graduated from PISD. It appears he has a private practice as well.
This is interesting.
Hammer_Man
08-04-19, 09:29
I need a shipping address for Firefly so I can send him a case of whatever he drinks. Same for colddeadhand above. There has been an all out culture war against white males for the last 30 years at least. This is what happens when you try "social engineering" to overcome biological coding. We are heading for tough times.
Sometimes I wonder if these socialist extremists we call college professors were planted by the Russians.
I actually did a little research on the topic.
I fully get Columbine seemed to start a new trend, but honestly if you look at all of it, it's always been there but with a Charles Whitman who comes along every decade or so.
I'm not specifically talking about school shootings. Also just looking at your links, the one that dates back to 1800s. They changed the charts from 10 year increments to 3 and now they have a separate 2019 chart.
I'm not suggesting crime is new. I'm not suggesting that the more people the more crime is not an element. I'm just saying we seem to be having a lot more ' like minded crazy person " type events. I agree it's not a gun issue but to me it seems like there is another element superimposed on this normally occurring crime type if you will.
These crimes seem oddly associated with a rewardless motive.
Sometimes I wonder if these socialist extremists we call college professors were planted by the Russians.
If not they are still willing conspirators.
Well, this post I am about to make won't be popular or well received so let me caveat it thusly:
Shooting up places like a Columbine Kid is morally, ethically, and legally wrong and should be discouraged.
That said, don't be too quick to do the mandatory 15 minutes of politicized hate. If you think about it, this lashing out is inevitable. More and more the white kids are being told how lame they are, how unhip they are, how wrong they are, and how they should be ashamed for things they never did in an era they never lived. Go read a modern elementary textbook. Meanwhile you do see a lot of preference and deference given to people coming over illegal, pumping out kids, getting guaranteed housing, guaranteed aid, and have people championing their "right" to be here illegally while they take the low skill jobs away and funnel money to Mexico.
Meanwhile you have people, White people let's be real here, who work their asses off, never seem to "qualify" for any assistance, never get to have their first kid until their 30s, and have to work twice as hard to get half the benefit. It does feel like at times that we've replaced Jim Crow with a De Facto James Dove. A LOT of young people today coming of age are NOT Millenials. You old farts can lay off the Millenials. 1999 was a LONG TIME AGO. Your "average" Millenial is almost 40. It's Gen Z's time to shine and they have a lot less to look forward to. Gen X and the Millenials had parents who by and large could set them up a little. Gen Z's aid comes between Shit and Syphilis.
Ever see Falling Down? Gen Z is NOT ECONOMICALLY VIABLE. The white voting block isnt important anymore. The Illegal and "Minority" votes are and are the easiest to get. A LOT of hardshell strongholds have gone blue. Texas is very much next. No amount of 10 gallon hats, oversized belt buckles, and BIG TEXAS RIGS is changing the fact that "Mexicans" are piling in by the literal truckload daily. They want free shit, they want a place to drop anchor babies, and they want YOU to pay for it.
In a way it's like that Ayn Rand book Anthem where people are so stripped of their identity that they have to wait until nightfall to scream in anonymity in fear of Re-education as their only surcease.
So you are going to see more of this. Get used to it. Welcome to the new Lost Generation.
I feel like if people hadnt been dollar chasing, engaging in over protacted wars, and gave a damn about their national sovereignty and borders and demanded other nations to respect it; we would HAVE something to give to Gen Z and it wouldnt be so hopeless for them.
We have no jobs for them.
We have almost encouraged racialism towards them
We have dickwhipped them into thinking they can never be correct.
We have never honestly helped them.
We rob from them in taxes and smugly give to the unworthy then kiss our own asses for it.
We constantly tell them the future does not include them.
We use the phrase "there is no place for ______ in this country" for the tools they need to nerely survive.
So may God damn us, and hopefully one day forgive us, for cornering these young people and doing everything to them but giving them an out that didnt involve submission, prostration, or assimilation into a society they had no stake or agency in, yet was allowed to dictate their lifepath before they were born.
They just wanted jobs, homes, communities and families. And we gave those things to everybody EXCEPT them.
Again, God damn us for that.
Well, Damn.... Now you have me waiting for your book, and I will gladly stand in line and pay extra for your signed first edition. A thought provoking post, indeed.
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.
How do you suggest that an actual amendment to the constitution in the BoR that is an individual right is in fact a privilege?
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 10:09
Kind of sick with all the straw man arguments that get made in here...
People say these events are due to mental heath issues... But no one want to take guns away from them.
I see nonsense arguments about, "good guy with a gun". Sorry, that is a dumb as shit response. That is reactive and not preventative.
I also see "you take our guns away and only criminals will have them", so then do nothing?
I also see "2A is a right!". Sorry, the constitution gets amended all the time.
Sick of all the talk and not one cohesive well thought out plan to combat this that the rightful gun owners can refer to.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-04-19, 10:11
F em.
No quarter given the next time a lefty goes crackers and attacks. Everyone fell over themselves to absolve Bernie about the Congressional shooter, now they can’t wait to line up to blame Trump for this one- when the shooter explicitly said this wasn’t about Trump, hell the shooter was and greenie..
White nationalists, as if STEM shooter here in CO, the Pulse shooter, San Bernardino, Dallas, and others fit that mold; not.
They just keep on going with their demonization of their opponents and then wonder when demons show up what the heck happened.
Sometimes I wonder if these socialist extremists we call college professors were planted by the Russians.
there is no reason to wonder. they were. Frankfurt School and all that.
Kind of sick with all the straw man arguments that get made in here...
People say these events are due to mental heath issues... But no one want to take guns away from them.
I see nonsense arguments about, "good guy with a gun". Sorry, that is a dumb as shit response. That is reactive and not preventative.
I also see "you take our guns away and only criminals will have them", so then do nothing?
I also see "2A is a right!". Sorry, the constitution gets amended all the time.
Sick of all the talk and not one cohesive well thought out plan to combat this that the rightful gun owners can refer to.
There is a point here. A cogent one. You may not like my answer but I will address it.
We simply live in an overpopulated, overly interdependent society now where everything and everyone gets hit with a broad brush.
You don’t want to rope that “Constitution gets amended all the time” goat as it in itself becomes a slippery slope. Rights are inherently absolute. This has long been agreed upon.
I hate to use the example but I will. Marriage.
At one time you were pretty much expected to marry one person and live together until you both died. Then divorce became easier and now marriage is essentially like going steady with shared bank accounts and joint property.
When we start making rash amendments to the Constitution it becomes, as Dubya famously said, “a goddamned piece of paper”.
The reality is.....
put enough people together who are wholly dissimilar and you will invariably sow discord.
I feel like at times we are, in a grander sense, long overdue for a major human catastrophe.
It is basic supply and demand.
We have too many people. When we have too many people; life is cheapened.
This is our Societal Kobayashi-Maru.
We can retain all Rights and accept that people are going to die in greater numbers or we can divest ourselves of our Rights and relinquish individual control and accept what our Oligarchs have in mind for us. A baseline of shared yoke. A systemic and tacit burden where we have no true success or failure. We just are born, do as we are ordered, breed within our allowance, and die when we become too expensive or involved to care for.
I cannot tell you what to believe and I cannot and will not judge you for what you decide is the lesser of the two evils but presently those are your options.
For those familiar with classic American cinema, I proffer a quote from the old, crippled Puerto Rican priest in Dawn of the Dead 1978
“When the dead walk. We must stop the killing or lose the war”
As I stated previously, in a lot of ways we have a new generation of adults who are essentially the societal dead. Regardless of political ideology (and personally speaking I find politics to be obsolete and vestigial now), there are millions of disenfranchised Americans who feel like guests, if not outright unwanted, in their own country. Of those millions, some are going to snap. And out of tragedy, someone is going to want to make money or some form of political gain by exploiting it rather than treating it with decorum.
They want your guns. They want your speech. They want to control who you associate with and why.
This is not the time to “be the bigger man” and self moderate.
This is the time to get off your ass and save someone else’s soul.
A good example would be to open a closing door for the youth running desperately towards it instead of thinking “Well I’ve had my turn. They can hustle like I had to”
The goalposts have been moved too far for that by people with more money, influence, or power than you shall ever have.
Now is the time to start rebuilding.
Ye shall rebuild the old wastes
Sometimes I wonder if these socialist extremists we call college professors were planted by the Russians.
The Cold War ended in 1991. Modern Russians have more in common with Americans as they were 20 years ago.
The ChiComs just want your money.
No, your opponent are dreamers who never lived through the systems they advocate
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-04-19, 10:59
Kind of sick with all the straw man arguments that get made in here...
People say these events are due to mental heath issues... But no one want to take guns away from them.
I think this is a straw man you made yourself. Most folks I know aren't opposed to taking away weapons from people who have been determined to be insane after an appropriate proceeding where due process is respected. What people don't want is some random policeman to just say magic words it and make it so.
I see nonsense arguments about, "good guy with a gun". Sorry, that is a dumb as shit response. That is reactive and not preventative.
Well, the phrase may be played out, but the response is legitimate. Firearms are almost always what ends these encounters. It is absolutely part of the solution.
I also see "you take our guns away and only criminals will have them", so then do nothing?
Wow, for someone who claims not to like straw man arguments.....
I also see "2A is a right!". Sorry, the constitution gets amended all the time.
Not really true but I'll go with it. Amend it. Just don't use bullshit executive orders and unconstitutional legislation to do it. If you pass an amendment it is totally legitimate. Good luck.
Sick of all the talk and not one cohesive well thought out plan to combat this that the rightful gun owners can refer to.
We are all ears.
Averageman
08-04-19, 11:05
It's not the Russians or the Chinese who want to take out the United States, because at some levels doing so would be akin to them shooting themselves in the kneecaps, our economies are that interdependent. They may be playing to win in the long game, but what we are seeing ins't a "Long Game" strategy.
We've had several debates amoungst the candidates running for POTUS for the Democratic Party. You need to be watching them.
They are the enemy and they have been undermining our society for decades, right now, they're trying to put the cherry on top so we can all enjoy this shit Sundae.
That some people who've been pushed to the margins are losing their minds because of it was inevitable, that they use guns to draw attention to themselves was again inevitable.
But it works exactly like those who are force feeding you Socialism want it too, now have a big bite of that Sundae,
Kind of sick with all the straw man arguments that get made in here...
People say these events are due to mental heath issues... But no one want to take guns away from them.
I see nonsense arguments about, "good guy with a gun". Sorry, that is a dumb as shit response. That is reactive and not preventative.
I also see "you take our guns away and only criminals will have them", so then do nothing?
I also see "2A is a right!". Sorry, the constitution gets amended all the time.
Sick of all the talk and not one cohesive well thought out plan to combat this that the rightful gun owners can refer to.
Okay homie, climb down off that pedestal and treat people with respect around here. By the way - where is YOUR plan? I mean, you want to know why the members of this forum haven’t come up with a solution (as if it’s solely OUR responsibility) yet I don’t see a proposal from you.
This is obviously a multifaceted, 4D chess issue that has it’s roots in sociology, psychology, epidemiology, social norming (the Overton Window) and ultimately political ideology. The 30 people just in this thread aren’t going to come up with a solution, let alone one that will be enacted by the government tomorrow.
What I do know, is that everyone (well, besides you and that other troll GH41) who has contributed thoughtfully to this thread has done so with respect to the law of the land, the US Constitution, and afforded the RIGHTS of the people as the main consideration, not the infrequent shooting of large numbers of people.
Go troll somewhere else.
Kind of sick with all the straw man arguments that get made in here...
People say these events are due to mental heath issues... But no one want to take guns away from them.
I see nonsense arguments about, "good guy with a gun". Sorry, that is a dumb as shit response. That is reactive and not preventative.
I also see "you take our guns away and only criminals will have them", so then do nothing?
I also see "2A is a right!". Sorry, the constitution gets amended all the time.
Sick of all the talk and not one cohesive well thought out plan to combat this that the rightful gun owners can refer to.
I see you too are a hater of freedom and liberty
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m24shooter
08-04-19, 11:32
An interesting view:
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2019/08/04/media-and-politicians-dont-get-it-brian-cates-thread-on-the-gunmans-alleged-manifesto-is-a-must-read/?fbclid=IwAR3s-UkF9ytGCiH9Ip4oKAOU6xEDM1u99-l7QQqGWfn0Q63y4YpaVHVYG9k
We are all ears.
Exactly...there are no laws on the books or ones that can be implemented in regards to more gun control fixing anything. You cannot legislate immoral & deviant behavior so even those claiming to be gun friendly get so frustrated they would be willing give up rights of the law abiding, while not affecting the outcome.
Banning 'assault' weapons will be the talking point for the next week or two...ask Mexico how well the law of not owning assault weapons via Federal law is working out.
The reality is.....
put enough people together who are wholly dissimilar and you will invariably sow discord.
So true. While our cultural diversity has some befits, it could also be our downfall. Countries like Japan aren’t diverse. Everyone that lives in Japan is Japanese, and they adhere to Japanese cultural norms. What are our cultural norms currently? Depends on what side you’re on. The U.S. is becoming increasingly tribal and social media along with the MSM only exacerbate that tribalism. Eventually tribes are going to go mat when one starts infringing on the other.
I've never once felt obligated to offer some kind of "solution" to gun-related crime in the US. Why would, or should I?
I remember the NRA's lame attempts at this after Newtown, but the NRA shouldn't have done it either. The NRA is (well supposed to be..) a *gun rights* organization, not a *school security* organization. Of course that was far from the most egregious example of "mission creep" in the NRA...
Doc Safari
08-04-19, 12:08
I don't think anything will stop the shootings. At every turn this country has turned its back on God and now America is reaping what it has sown.
I had to put my tin foil hat on before posting this, but it seems strange how these mass shooters come out of the woodwork when the Dems are having problems. The Mueller report made them look like fools, and opened up the possibility of their own being investigated.
I said the same thing several pages ago.
Kind of sick with all the straw man arguments that get made in here...
People say these events are due to mental heath issues... But no one want to take guns away from them.
I see nonsense arguments about, "good guy with a gun". Sorry, that is a dumb as shit response. That is reactive and not preventative.
I also see "you take our guns away and only criminals will have them", so then do nothing?
I also see "2A is a right!". Sorry, the constitution gets amended all the time.
Sick of all the talk and not one cohesive well thought out plan to combat this that the rightful gun owners can refer to.
So please enlighten us, what is The Plan then?
Cute comment about the Constitution getting amended, although it hasn't been done in 27 years, so not exactly "all the time". Exactly what was your point of mentioning amending the Constitution? Are you suggesting something? Please elaborate.
Hammer_Man
08-04-19, 12:37
I don't think anything will stop the shootings. At every turn this country has turned its back on God and now America is reaping what it has sown.
^^^This^^^
I don't think anything will stop the shootings. At every turn this country has turned its back on God and now America is reaping what it has sown.
^^^^Since our society has replaced God with the amoral State I think the decline will continue.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 12:50
Okay homie, climb down off that pedestal and treat people with respect around here. By the way - where is YOUR plan? I mean, you want to know why the members of this forum haven’t come up with a solution (as if it’s solely OUR responsibility) yet I don’t see a proposal from you.
This is obviously a multifaceted, 4D chess issue that has it’s roots in sociology, psychology, epidemiology, social norming (the Overton Window) and ultimately political ideology. The 30 people just in this thread aren’t going to come up with a solution, let alone one that will be enacted by the government tomorrow.
What I do know, is that everyone (well, besides you and that other troll GH41) who has contributed thoughtfully to this thread has done so with respect to the law of the land, the US Constitution, and afforded the RIGHTS of the people as the main consideration, not the infrequent shooting of large numbers of people.
Go troll somewhere else.
You were on a roll right up until that statement...
How many folks are killed everyday to drunk drivers and texting?
I’ll wait....
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I don't think anything will stop the shootings. At every turn this country has turned its back on God and now America is reaping what it has sown.
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
God help us all.
Coal Dragger
08-04-19, 13:26
Might as well close this thread, it has devolved into the normal small number of totalitarian statists trolling or actually advocating for curbing of Constitutional rights (because at heart they don’t believe individuals should have rights) versus everyone else. This is not productive or conducive to any kind of reasonable discussion.
Thread is a total shit show, time to close it or sanitize it. Since I’m no fan of hiding people’s actual positions, my vote is just close it. Censorship is wrong, although ironically the totalitarian statists here probably love censorship.
Might as well close this thread, it has devolved into the normal small number of totalitarian statists trolling or actually advocating for curbing of Constitutional rights (because at heart they don’t believe individuals should have rights) versus everyone else. This is not productive or conducive to any kind of reasonable discussion.
Thread is a total shit show, time to close it or sanitize it. Since I’m no fan of hiding people’s actual positions, my vote is just close it. Censorship is wrong, although ironically the totalitarian statists here probably love censorship.
All the more reason not to close it.
There’s enough of that as is with respect this sites core purpose already it seems for whatever reason.
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 13:56
How many folks are killed everyday to drunk drivers and texting?
I’ll wait....
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10,874 due to drunk driving
13,104 due to homicide with firearms
But I don't think that was the answer you were expecting...
Anyways, It is a poor analogy. There are mechanisms under law to attempt to curb that, they take away licenses. One is a privilege the other a right. Apples and Oranges.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:00
Might as well close this thread, it has devolved into the normal small number of totalitarian statists trolling or actually advocating for curbing of Constitutional rights (because at heart they don’t believe individuals should have rights) versus everyone else. This is not productive or conducive to any kind of reasonable discussion.
Thread is a total shit show, time to close it or sanitize it. Since I’m no fan of hiding people’s actual positions, my vote is just close it. Censorship is wrong, although ironically the totalitarian statists here probably love censorship.
Ya... more stick our heads in the sand, and then when they are all banned start throwing a tantrum like a child.
Things are not working, time to change the message and come up with a valid plan.
10,874 due to drunk driving
13,104 due to homicide with firearms
But I don't think that was the answer you were expecting...
Anyways, It is a poor analogy. There are mechanisms under law to attempt to curb that, they take away licenses. One is a privilege the other a right. Apples and Oranges.
You know that the majority of homicides with firearms are in fact suicides, right? Kinda shoots a hole in your comparison (pun intended).
Even idiots with suspended licenses get drunk and drive. In fact, it is amazing how many of those idiots with multiple DUI's are driving without licenses, so it really doesn't stop anything. Locking them up would.
Ya... more stick our heads in the sand, and then when they are all banned start throwing a tantrum like a child.
Things are not working, time to change the message and come up with a valid plan.
I don't have an answer, however it appears that you do. What is it pray tell? Serious question.
How many folks are killed everyday to drunk drivers and texting?
I’ll wait....30 a day from drunk driving alone. The left doesn't care. It could be 3000 a day and it wouldn't be as bad as firearms. They need to take the guns in order to begin taking everything else.
30 a day from drunk driving alone. The left doesn't care. It could be 3000 a day and it wouldn't be as bad as firearms. They need to take the guns in order to begin taking everything else.
Spot on! As the tired (albeit true) old saying goes, "It isn't about gun control, it's about people control". Control being the key word. They don't give two shits about victims of gun crime; they just don't want it to be THEM as they foist, force, and ram-rod their agenda down our throats. ;)
You know that the majority of homicides with firearms are in fact suicides, right? Kinda shoots a hole in your comparison (pun intended).
Even idiots with suspended licenses get drunk and drive. In fact, it is amazing how many of those idiots with multiple DUI's are driving without licenses, so it really doesn't stop anything. Locking them up would.
Truth. That number also includes justifiable homicides as well.
10,874 due to drunk driving
13,104 due to homicide with firearms
But I don't think that was the answer you were expecting...
Anyways, It is a poor analogy. There are mechanisms under law to attempt to curb that, they take away licenses. One is a privilege the other a right. Apples and Oranges.
Nope. I’m fine with those numbers. Any loss of innocent life is always a tragedy.
But nobody seems to care about shootings in the bluff in Atlanta. Nobody seems to care about the cartel sponsored violence on the border.
Nobody sure as hell cares about curbing alcohol consumption with the same fervor as they do firearms.
As an example I’ll highlight the revitalization effort on the waterfront in Buffalo NY. Huge efforts by the city to attract businesses (many of which are bars, distilleries, etc) all for the sake of economic growth. But be damned the up tick in alcohol related deaths directly a result of said efforts.
But no one gives a shit
So sorry not sorry if you’re expecting folks to drop everything and willfully subvert their rights over some feel good bullshit.
Innocent lives are innocent lives so it absolutely is an apples to apples comparison.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
08-04-19, 14:19
We are still waiting digital d? What is your plan? Since you don't like the status quo and everyone else's ideas you find wanting. Let's hear it or I am inclined to think you are just a troll.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:24
Nope. I’m fine with those numbers. Any loss of innocent life is always a tragedy.
But nobody seems to care about shootings in the bluff in Atlanta. Nobody seems to care about the cartel sponsored violence on the border.
Nobody sure as hell cares about curbing alcohol consumption with the same fervor as they do firearms.
As an example I’ll highlight the revitalization effort on the waterfront in Buffalo NY. Huge efforts by the city to attract businesses (many of which are bars, distilleries, etc) all for the sake of economic growth. But be damned the up tick in alcohol related deaths directly a result of said efforts.
But no one gives a shit
So sorry not sorry if you’re expecting folks to drop everything and willfully subvert their rights over some feel good bullshit.
Innocent lives are innocent lives so it absolutely is an apples to apples comparison.
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I dont see it that way.
See a lot of "gun check points", all over the roads?
Lets not kid ourselves, gun manufactures are in it for the same reason as the distillery's.. profit.
Now the secondary reasons might be different.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:27
We are still waiting digital d? What is your plan? Since you don't like the status quo and everyone else's ideas you find wanting. Let's hear it or I am inclined to think you are just a troll.
My plan? Is to come up with a plan. Not sure where you are coming off with this "Trolling", I'm at least looking at the situation and stating the current situation is untenable.
Allow a bi-partisan committee investigate root causes and create a plan. Quit burring our heads in the sand spouting off obtuse talking points and get to the core issue.
THEN execute corrective action, whatever that might be.
Inkslinger
08-04-19, 14:28
10,874 due to drunk driving
13,104 due to homicide with firearms
But I don't think that was the answer you were expecting...
Anyways, It is a poor analogy. There are mechanisms under law to attempt to curb that, they take away licenses. One is a privilege the other a right. Apples and Oranges.
Where are you finding the number 13,104 a day for homicides by firearms? It’s completely wrong, but I’m curious about your source none the less.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-04-19, 14:29
Alright. So your plan is to form a committee to form a plan.
Outlander Systems
08-04-19, 14:31
I lol’d at this.
Alright. So your plan is to form a committee to form a plan.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-04-19, 14:31
Lets not kid ourselves, gun manufactures are in it for the same reason as the distillery's.. profit.
OK? Is that supposed to be a point of some kind?
Maybe we can talk about big pharma and profits
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Lets not kid ourselves, gun manufactures are in it for the same reason as the distillery's.. profit.
CLUTCH THE PEARLS, companies are operating with a profit motive? How do we allow any of them to carry on?
You talk about getting to the core issue. How do we force people to raise their kids right?
Sometimes I wonder if these socialist extremists we call college professors were planted by the Russians.
I think this qualifies as “well-documented” in an indirect way. The peace/anti war/communist movements of the 60’s and 70’s were supported by the Russians and led to the professorships held or recently handed off today.
A plan to come up with a plan...well dd, you are getting your wish as that's all I'm hearing on TV is how the law makers are gonna get together once again to plan a solution that will not address stopping these shootings. Their plan is going to affect the freedoms of the law abiding.
I don't think you should get off that easy...come on, give us some ideas you got going on in your noggin of this committee you should be a part of & tell us it does not involve more restrictive gun laws the immoral & deviant monsters will not abide.
Every business sets out to make a profit so stop crawfishing & get back to your ideas of a solution. A plan to make a plan doesn't get you off the hook imo.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:39
Where are you finding the number 13,104 a day for homicides by firearms? It’s completely wrong, but I’m curious about your source none the less.
Take the average of FBI stats (10,982 and still more than Drunk driving BTW, and only includes deaths voluntarily reported by Local Law enforcement), with the deaths reported by the associated press (Which is also subject to accountability issues).
Since roughly 14% of counties refuse to report I suspect it could be much higher.
My plan? Is to come up with a plan. Not sure where you are coming off with this "Trolling", I'm at least looking at the situation and stating the current situation is untenable.
Allow a bi-partisan committee investigate root causes and create a plan. Quit burring our heads in the sand spouting off obtuse talking points and get to the core issue.
THEN execute corrective action, whatever that might be.
The bolded parts lead me to believe you indeed have an idea of what you'd suggest but doing so might not go over well here. C'mon, spill it!
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:42
OK? Is that supposed to be a point of some kind?
It correlates and refutes with his assertion that distilleries are all in it for the profit, but some how no one cares. Which is the same reason anyone has a business, profit.
Lol @ anything government oriented solution
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:43
Alright. So your plan is to form a committee to form a plan.
It's is worse than that, my plan is to allow it. To date people have been so dug in on the positions that no one wants to talk about the actual cause.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:45
Lol @ anything government oriented solution
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ok... so don't let the government govern? How does that help?
It correlates and refutes with his assertion that distilleries are all in it for the profit, but some how no one cares. Which is the same reason anyone has a business, profit.
No one cares that innocent people die as a result of alcohol, especially government entities trying to expand their tax revenue streams.
It literally has nothing to do with profits. Are you obtuse?
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ok... so don't let the government govern? How does that help?
You’re in DC right? So you have a front row seat to shit show that is governance. How’s that working out?
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:47
No one cares that innocent people die as a result of alcohol, especially government entities trying to expand their tax revenue streams.
It literally has nothing to do with profits. Are you obtuse?
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So... like I said. See a lot of "Gun checkpoints" all over the road? Saying no one cares is a myopic comment.
just a scout
08-04-19, 14:48
Here’s your combination of overwhelming gun laws, poor neighborhood and weak family/social cohesion.
https://wgntv.com/2019/08/04/7-people-shot-in-west-side-park-police/
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 14:48
You’re in DC right? So you have a front row seat to shit show that is governance. How’s that working out?
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Working out as designed, a microcosm of the country and the people that have voted for them. Which is divisive and hysterical.
Inkslinger
08-04-19, 14:50
Take the average of FBI stats (10,982 and still more than Drunk driving BTW, and only includes deaths voluntarily reported by Local Law enforcement), with the deaths reported by the associated press (Which is also subject to accountability issues).
Since roughly 14% of counties refuse to report I suspect it could be much higher.
The CDC and FBI report slightly under 40,000 gun deaths a year (65+% are suicides). By your statistics, there would be 4.7+ million gun homicides a year. Again where are you getting the number of over 13,000 a day? Or are you thinking a year, because the original question was “a day”?
So... like I said. See a lot of "Gun checkpoints" all over the road? Saying no one cares is a myopic comment.
You understand how the 4th amendment works right? What reasonable suspicion is? What probable cause is?
DUI check points are BS in my opinion but hey driving is a privilege.
And no, no one cares when innocent people die as the result of innocuous means. It’s just, a tragedy, and folks wring their hands of it.
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The Dumb Gun Collector
08-04-19, 14:53
DD is not here to offer anything. He starts off with a post that is a lame attempt to cut the legs out from everyone else by saying their positions are "straw men, etc" He then proceeds to kick the crap out of some straw men. He doesn't care for our position, but wants us to shut up while he preaches from the mountain. But then his plan is for us to shut up while a "bipartisan" committee comes up with a plan. This is all moonshine. The reason he doesn't want to propose anything is because he knows that what he is really wanting us to accept is a massive intrusion into our personal liberty. I will go ahead and predict the findings of his bipartisan committee since he is scared to say:
1. Instant red-flag law that allows any old random cop or social worker to extinguish your Constitutional right to a firearm on a whim.
2. Registration of "weapons of war" short term (assault weapons is played out boys, it is "weapons of war now.) Long term, seizure under penalty of prison.
3. Mag bans. Probably 7 or less now. Total ban on magazine fed later.
4. Probably a psych eval cert before you can buy a .22 or .410 long term.
5. Ultimately, trust the boys in blue (black these days), they will look out for you and your family.
Speaking of alcohol related issues-in my 30 years of LE/Mil, no matter the level of education, enforcement, consequences and punishment seemed to matter. While it may have stopped repeat issues, it was and is a constant flow. We can look back in history and a few have predicted the behavior we see today with violence. Until we fix the societal issues, we will see it continue. Simple discipline, respect at all levels has broken down. Look at home, schools where it all begins, parents, teachers, etc are in constant fear if acting.
Heck, even look at how an animal behaves that was kept with it's unit verses one that was pulled and stuck in a cage, etc. Never taught the "rules" What's right, what's wrong, etc.
Okay guys, I'll ask politely.. Were the killer's actions justified by his right to keep and bear arms as promised by the 2A?? I don't think so. He is just another nutcase who should have had his privilege to own guns denied! Yes, I said privilege not right.I am also confused by what you are actually asking here.
I don't think mass murder is ever justified. Notice I said murder and not killing.
Do I think this person had the right to keep and bear arms?...... Yes
Do I think he had the right to murder with those arms?.... Absolutely not
Why is this so confusing to some?
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:01
The CDC and FBI report slightly under 40,000 gun deaths a year (65+% are suicides). By your statistics, there would be 4.7+ million gun homicides a year. Again where are you getting the number of over 13,000 a day? Or are you thinking a year, because the original question was “a day”?
Both figures are based on year, 2017 to be exact.
13,000 number is related to murder victims, FBI number related to the UCR program as it relates to Murder victims. Does not include suicide or the people that looked down the barrel while cleaning.
2016 stats here
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
The CDC and FBI report slightly under 40,000 gun deaths a year (65+% are suicides). By your statistics, there would be 4.7+ million gun homicides a year. Again where are you getting the number of over 13,000 a day? Or are you thinking a year, because the original question was “a day”?
I came up with the same numbers. My previous comments were made without consideration to the number given. Once I realized he posted "per day" I had a serious WTF moment
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:03
You understand how the 4th amendment works right? What reasonable suspicion is? What probable cause is?
DUI check points are BS in my opinion but hey driving is a privilege.
And no, no one cares when innocent people die as the result of innocuous means. It’s just, a tragedy, and folks wring their hands of it.
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Legality questions aside, that is not what you said. You said noone cares.
Now you’re just being purposely obtuse
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Now you’re just being purposely obtuse
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I don’t see congress trying to pass red flag drinking laws, background checks on alcohol sales, alcohol purchaser licensing requirements, etc...
If it saves just one life......
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:08
Now you’re just being purposely obtuse
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You said it, not me. You said no one cared, which is not true. You tried to distract from the discussion with a brittle comparison that is has no foundation.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:09
I don’t see congress trying to pass red flag drinking laws, background checks on alcohol sales, alcohol purchaser licensing requirements, etc...
If it saves just one life......
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Never been to Utah or any state under ABC? Also, laws are on the books for distribution and sales.
Never been to Utah or any state under ABC? Also, laws are on the books for distribution and sales.
And murder is illegal. But hey, here we are bro.
It’s almost like words on paper codified into laws don’t work [emoji848]
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Inkslinger
08-04-19, 15:15
Both figures are based on year, 2017 to be exact.
13,000 number is related to murder victims, FBI number related to the UCR program as it relates to Murder victims. Does not include suicide or the people that looked down the barrel while cleaning.
2016 stats here
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
I’m well versed on the statistics, that’s why I asked you to clarify your post. You obviously missed that the question was “per day” not per year. And even with that said, you’re using the total number of murders in that statistic, not strictly the firearms related murders. Regardless, if you are aware of the break down of that 13,000 you will see it consists mostly of gang violence, then you have police involved shooting, justifiably homicides, accidental...
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:26
I’m well versed on the statistics, that’s why I asked you to clarify your post. You obviously missed that the question was “per day” not per year. And even with that said, you’re using the total number of murders in that statistic, not strictly the firearms related murders. Regardless, if you are aware of the break down of that 13,000 you will see it consists mostly of gang violence, then you have police involved shooting, justifiably homicides, accidental...
As previously stated my number was an average from UCR and associated press since a large group of counties will not participate in the UCR program.
Did not use total murders under the UCR, total reported murders for 2017 was 15,129. Gun related only, was 10,982 reported by participating counties.
2017 Table 8
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls
Inkslinger
08-04-19, 15:32
As previously stated my number was an average from UCR and associated press since a large group of counties will not participate in the UCR program.
Did not use total murders under the UCR, total reported murders for 2017 was 15,129. Gun related only, was 10,982 reported by participating counties.
2017 Table 8
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls
Again, the original question was per day. That number is 38. Out of 335 million people, I’m fine with 38.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:38
Again, the original question was per day. That number is 38. Out of 335 million people, I’m fine with 38.
… fine with 38 people dying per day from gun related homicides? What...
Strange position to take, but ok. I guess anything that causes under 30 people to loose their lives a day through other people culpability is cool.
I don’t know the nationwide stats. But just based on my area, I don’t believe that more people are killed by murder with firearms than drunk driving. Or sober driving. Or motorcycles. Or even claw hammers.
Just anecdotes.
MountainRaven
08-04-19, 15:41
Things:
1- Yes, there are a lot more mass shootings today than there a hundred years ago. Part of this is, inevitably, because there are a lot more people living today. The population of the US in 2017 was double what it was in 1950, which is more than double what it was in 1900; the US population in 2017 was more than ten times greater than it was in 1860, and nearly one hundred times greater than in 1790. The US population in 2017 was almost double what the global population was in 1700... And there were 50% more people living in the US in 2017 than were alive on Earth when Christ was born. So even if just the likelihood of an individual committing a mass shooting has remained unchanged, the number of such shootings will have increased enormously.
2- Nobody is required to provide government-issued ID establishing their identity, their age, and their residency to buy alcohol. Nobody is required to pass a federally-administered background check to purchase alcohol. There are no classes of persons prohibited from purchasing alcohol. Nobody is required to notify the FBI when someone buys more than one alcoholic beverage. No such things exist for purchasing a car - or a tank, for that matter. And yet people who have had their drivers licenses taken, who cannot get their cars insured, still kill people with their cars and are still stopped and arrested for DUI on the regular. Furthermore, being able to freely travel is a right, not a privilege.
3- There were five Amendments to the Constitution passed in the 18th and 19th Centuries. Eleven in the 20th Century. With one exception, every amendment has expanded the Constitutionally-protected rights of the American people or sought to restrict the powers of government. That one exception has since been repealed by another amendment. Furthermore, we're nearly a fifth of the way through the 21st Century and no Amendment has been past in this Century (that may soon change with the Equal Rights Amendment, which has been batted around for almost a century - and the last Amendment to be ratified had been around for over 200 years). So the idea that the US Constitution gets changed all the time is LUL-worthy.
DD, awe c’mon kitten, we won’t tell anyone your plan! Keep it up, you’re doing fantastic!
So what you’re saying is that you want the same government that has spent the last 60 years implementing social programs that have degraded social norms and personal responsibility for their benefit, to take swift, decisive action based on emotional appeals from disaffected soccer moms and pubescent, whiny high school apparatchiks?
Please add something useful to the conversation rather than continuing to be purposefully obtuse and disrespectful to the hosts. We can disagree, but articulate your viewpoint.
Inkslinger
08-04-19, 15:45
… fine with 38 people dying per day from gun related homicides? What...
Strange position to take, but ok. I guess anything that causes under 30 people to loose their lives a day through other people culpability is cool.
The point is there is a long list of generally commonplace things that cause more deaths than firearms. Nobody is screaming the sky is falling because of any of those.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:53
Things:
1- Yes, there are a lot more mass shootings today than there a hundred years ago. Part of this is, inevitably, because there are a lot more people living today. The population of the US in 2017 was double what it was in 1950, which is more than double what it was in 1900; the US population in 2017 was more than ten times greater than it was in 1860, and nearly one hundred times greater than in 1790. The US population in 2017 was almost double what the global population was in 1700... And there were 50% more people living in the US in 2017 than were alive on Earth when Christ was born. So even if just the likelihood of an individual committing a mass shooting has remained unchanged, the number of such shootings will have increased enormously.
2- Nobody is required to provide government-issued ID establishing their identity, their age, and their residency to buy alcohol. Nobody is required to pass a federally-administered background check to purchase alcohol. There are no classes of persons prohibited from purchasing alcohol. Nobody is required to notify the FBI when someone buys more than one alcoholic beverage. No such things exist for purchasing a car - or a tank, for that matter. And yet people who have had their drivers licenses taken, who cannot get their cars insured, still kill people with their cars and are still stopped and arrested for DUI on the regular. Furthermore, being able to freely travel is a right, not a privilege.
3- There were five Amendments to the Constitution passed in the 18th and 19th Centuries. Eleven in the 20th Century. With one exception, every amendment has expanded the Constitutionally-protected rights of the American people or sought to restrict the powers of government. That one exception has since been repealed by another amendment. Furthermore, we're nearly a fifth of the way through the 21st Century and no Amendment has been past in this Century (that may soon change with the Equal Rights Amendment, which has been batted around for almost a century - and the last Amendment to be ratified had been around for over 200 years). So the idea that the US Constitution gets changed all the time is LUL-worthy.
Well those items are not true... In most states yes. Establishing identity and age are a requirements and their are lots of people on probation not permitted to purchase alcohol
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 15:57
DD, awe c’mon kitten, we won’t tell anyone your plan! Keep it up, you’re doing fantastic!
So what you’re saying is that you want the same government that has spent the last 60 years implementing social programs that have degraded social norms and personal responsibility for their benefit, to take swift, decisive action based on emotional appeals from disaffected soccer moms and pubescent, whiny high school apparatchiks?
Please add something useful to the conversation rather than continuing to be purposefully obtuse and disrespectful to the hosts. We can disagree, but articulate your viewpoint.
Because this is useful? I think I have added a significant number of topics for discussion... but you have done what?
Allow a bi-partisan committee investigate root causes and create a plan. Quit burring our heads in the sand spouting off obtuse talking points and get to the core issue.
THEN execute corrective action, whatever that might be.
Bi partisan? Never going to happen. But for the sake of arguing let's assume it happens. Investigate the root cause? Well it's drugs, both legal and illegal, and culture.
You'll never stop someone from thinking the other side deserves to die. And since we can't read minds we don't know the reason behind the purchase. The easiest thing is to ban all guns. When that fails it will be ban knives. Then ban pointy knives, as has been proposed in UK. ...etc ...etc..
To stop this you'll have to have a complete cultural reset. Never going to happen.
Ill add that do not have a plan and I do not know where to even begin to implement a solution without erasing rights.
vicious_cb
08-04-19, 16:06
The point is there is a long list of generally commonplace things that cause more deaths than firearms. Nobody is screaming the sky is falling because of any of those.
Pretty much this, while people are busy manipulating statistics to lie might as well throw down some of my own.
Deaths from Weapons: Rifles (Expanded Homicide Data Table 8,Murder Victims)
by Weapon, 2013–2017
2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
285 258 258 378 403
Number of people who died by becoming tangled in their bedsheets Deaths (US) (CDC) :
1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
330 327 456 509 497 596 573 661 741 809 717 684
People who died by falling out of their bed Deaths (US) (CDC):
1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
400 450 516 551 594 503 621 626 690 737 780 718
Now that we know who the real killer is, I suggest we start a bipartisan committee on bed safety.
MountainRaven
08-04-19, 16:11
Well those items are not true... In most states yes. Establishing identity and age are a requirements and their are lots of people on probation not permitted to purchase alcohol
Establishing age is only required if you appear to the person selling the alcohol to be under the age of 35. No record is made of the ID or the purchaser or what the purchaser bought.
Which is pretty much literally the same thing as requiring an FFL to only see your ID if you look like you might be a criminal (if we issued a, "I'm not a criminal, promise," ID), but not requiring proof that the ID was checked or that a record of the purchase be made.
And sure people on probation may not be supposed to be buying alcohol, but not one tenth of one percent of the effort is made to prevent them from buying alcohol as is made to keep people whose doctors have prescribed marijuana from getting guns.
This was just posted on Borderlandbeat. I did not realize the red flag or quite understand his comment about not being able to catch via algorithm if all this is factual. This is not a gun control issue.
The social media picture he is referring is the word TRUMP spelled out with black guns & suppressed pistols. I would link it but not a family friendly site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Manifesto of shooter who killed 20 in El Paso Texas
Op-Ed by Chivis Martinez Borderland Beat
“I just want to say I love the people of his country, but god damn most of y’all are just too stubborn to change your lifestyle. So the next plausible step is to decrease the number of people in America using resources, If we can get rid of enough people, then our way of life can be sustainable…..” The El Paso shooter
Yesterday morning a mass shooting occurred in El Paso Texas, killing 20 and leaving 24 injured and hospitalized.
The 21 year old white male drove 10 hours to the border to conduct his evil, monstrous act. I will not be using his name or his image. That is what these bastards want, notoriety, hero worship among alike thinkers.
I have a good idea why he drove across the great state of Texas to kill as many people as possible. It is because he wanted brown skinned victims.
Anyone who lives or have lived in a Texas border town like El Paso, Del Rio, Eagle Pass, knows that you can count on a couple of things; A super Wal-Mart, and various stores are lined adjacent to the POE.Mexican national consumers are a big part of the economy in these border towns, and any given weekend they flood the retail outlets.
The shooter had to have known that El Paso has a predominantly Hispanic population, and Mexican Nationals would be in full shopping force, even more so on this weekend, as it is back to school weekend and a tax free sale was offered to customers. So his target field would be condensed with brown humans and he would be able to kill a greater number. And Wal-Mart was filled at its maximum of 3000.
He also had to know that there would be more children shopping yesterday than typically. His youngest victim was a 2 month old. Not only did he not care, he purposely chose that date so that children would be among the dead, thereby having a greater impact.
The 2 month old baby’s mother threw herself and the baby on the ground for protection. The mother was shielding the infant when she was shot and killed, the baby suffered broken bones from the fall but was protected from bullet impacts.
Of the 20 killed 3 were Mexican Nationals, of the 24 injured, 7 are Mexican Nationals including a 10 year old girl.
It seems that for him this was important. Reading the manifesto his hate is against immigration, which he refers to as the "Hispanic invasion of Texas" and what their presence denies “natives”.
He also is anti-corporate, anti-automation; the manifesto praises the shooter in Christchurch, New Zealand. He is hate driven, hates Dems hates Repubs, corporations, complains about the pollution of water.
~The political divide
Race plays a big part in this tragedy. However, if you read his words, one can clearly see his hate is much more complicated than racism.
He points out that although the media will blame President Trump, and “Trumps rhetoric” but that he has long held this ideology which predates Trump or his campaign.
I was hoping the media and social media could refrain from saying this was about Trump, or a political party. That further divides, and accomplishes nothing.
Right away I saw this image posted on twitter and elsewhere, Supposedly it was from the shooter and his tweet. Well I looked at his twitter page and it was not there, in fact nothing but a half dozen old tweets were lingering. His page is now removed.
I did a search for the origin of the image---and found it is about 2 years old and was with an article about gun control.
The ignorant lowlife who tweeted it, saying it was the shooters tweet, did not care that thousands of people retweeted the incendiary image. He just went for the retweets as if that somehow has value.
~Social Media and hate websites
The shooter, as the shooter in Poway California and New Zealand all used 8Chan website. Reportedly the manifesto was posted the day prior to the shooting. In it he even discusses the weapon he will use.
So why aren’t algorithms mandated? To be used by these websites? This guy was waving a red flag, he could have been stopped. Free speech on social media must be in conjunction with oversight and responsibility. Those who saw the manifesto and did nothing are also guilty.
Social media is a major element in the answer to why the uptick in mass shootings. It is the engine to perpetuate hate and violence. These fiends find “friends” who think alike, who encourage, share information and a group that they are hungry to impress.
“Capture is worse than dying”
In his writing he says he wanted to be shot by police because it was better than going to prison. He says he would receive the death penalty and his family would despise him.
They will have plenty of company.
His problem was he ran out of ammunition so there was no shooting to the end. He gave himself up, something he said he would not do even if he ran out of ammo.
MountainRaven
08-04-19, 16:16
Pretty much this, while people are busy manipulating statistics to lie.
Deaths from Weapons: Rifles (Expanded Homicide Data Table 8,Murder Victims)
by Weapon, 2013–2017
2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
285 258 258 378 403
Number of people who died by becoming tangled in their bedsheets Deaths (US) (CDC) :
1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
330 327 456 509 497 596 573 661 741 809 717 684
People who died by falling out of their bed Deaths (US) (CDC):
1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
400 450 516 551 594 503 621 626 690 737 780 718
Now that we know who the real killer is, I suggest we start a bipartisan committee on bed safety.
You know, I would be pretty OK with sleeping on a Japanese futon for the rest of ever.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Futons_in_a_Ryokan_-_2.jpg
Belmont31R
08-04-19, 16:23
Can we just legalize prostitution so these incel social rejects can get laid? These pasty ugly dorks have never seen a naked female and have zero prospects. Often no dad around to teach them how to be a man. If they work it’s some low end part time job so they can go home and isolate themselves. Then the hatred builds up until a few pop. I don’t believe the ‘white supremacist’ bullshit. It’s just a way to get society riled up as if killing innocents wasn’t enough.
An illegal kills 19 America and no one seems to care. One scumbag goes after Hispanic people and the whole country looses it’s mind.
Funny how that happens.
Because this is useful? I think I have added a significant number of topics for discussion... but you have done what?
Although not an admin, I’m the Dalton-esque pragamatic bouncer of sorts for this thread. I’m attempting to keep you grounded in reality, which you’ve bucked at every turn. Everybody else is in here “being nice,” and you come stomping in here anecdotally calling everyone’s “mom a C-sucker.” Vicious CB stated more in reference to statistics and proving a point in his last post than all the hogwash you’ve been trying to spout in the whole thread.
Again, not saying we all have to agree on everything, but seriously, your attempt at trolling is laughable at best and troublingly indicative of your mindset at worst.
While you’re pounding away on your keyboard, I’m on the streets working the front line. While you spout numbers that don’t mean anything and cry out “think of the children!” the rest of us have to prepare accordingly to keep ourselves and others safe. That’s what I’m doing.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-04-19, 16:39
W
Can we just legalize prostitution so these incel social rejects can get laid? These pasty ugly dorks have never seen a naked female and have zero prospects. Often no dad around to teach them how to be a man. If they work it’s some low end part time job so they can go home and isolate themselves. Then the hatred builds up until a few pop. I don’t believe the ‘white supremacist’ bullshit. It’s just a way to get society riled up as if killing innocents wasn’t enough.
We’ll have to pay for it...
I get DD’s point. What do you do about this? The left will always have ‘something’ that fits their world-view, doesn’t negatively impact them, and allow them to virtue signal. UBC’s are the cry now, no matter that it doesn’t address the problem. But as long as people are getting shot, the left will call to curtail our rights. Maybe doing nothing is the right answer. Maybe there are some ‘somethings’ that might help. But this is politics. I think for once we could actually negotiate for something. Nationwide CCWs. Codification that ARs are legal. Stop at least always giving something, and at least get something out of something that is going to happen.
The 94% for UBCs is some kind of trick. It must be the order and structure of the question.
Has anyone read the TAPS ACT?
It’s a travesty of liberty and you should
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 16:53
Although not an admin, I’m the Dalton-esque pragamatic bouncer of sorts for this thread. I’m attempting to keep you grounded in reality, which you’ve bucked at every turn. Everybody else is in here “being nice,” and you come stomping in here anecdotally calling everyone’s “mom a C-sucker.” Vicious CB stated more in reference to statistics and proving a point in his last post than all the hogwash you’ve been trying to spout in the whole thread.
Again, not saying we all have to agree on everything, but seriously, your attempt at trolling is laughable at best and troublingly indicative of your mindset at worst.
While you’re pounding away on your keyboard, I’m on the streets working the front line. While you spout numbers that don’t mean anything and cry out “think of the children!” the rest of us have to prepare accordingly to keep ourselves and others safe. That’s what I’m doing.
You are right... not an admin, not your lane to be in.
Also. You do not know me, where my life travels have carried me or where I'm going. You should be careful on making broad assumptions and statements.
Statements that I might add, have no relevance on the subject. You just come stomping around calling people names... that's cool. You're a hypocrite BTW, I do not think these post get displayed through osmosis...
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 16:55
W
We’ll have to pay for it...
I get DD’s point. What do you do about this? The left will always have ‘something’ that fits their world-view, doesn’t negatively impact them, and allow them to virtue signal. UBC’s are the cry now, no matter that it doesn’t address the problem. But as long as people are getting shot, the left will call to curtail our rights. Maybe doing nothing is the right answer. Maybe there are some ‘somethings’ that might help. But this is politics. I think for once we could actually negotiate for something. Nationwide CCWs. Codification that ARs are legal. Stop at least always giving something, and at least get something out of something that is going to happen.
The 94% for UBCs is some kind of trick. It must be the order and structure of the question.
That is more or less the point... this is not going away, and as these things repeat the "do nothing approach" is no longer going to be effective. We are already behind in the negotiations, need to get in front of the issue and hollow talking points is not going to work any longer.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 16:59
Can we just legalize prostitution so these incel social rejects can get laid? These pasty ugly dorks have never seen a naked female and have zero prospects. Often no dad around to teach them how to be a man. If they work it’s some low end part time job so they can go home and isolate themselves. Then the hatred builds up until a few pop. I don’t believe the ‘white supremacist’ bullshit. It’s just a way to get society riled up as if killing innocents wasn’t enough.
Well... I understand this is in jest. However, some thing that should be personnel and moral decisions have been takin away as a choice. That can leed to widespread violence. Just look at the prohibition era.
That is more or less the point... this is not going away, and as these things repeat the "do nothing approach" is no longer going to be effective. We are already behind in the negotiations, need to get in front of the issue and hollow talking points is not going to work any longer.
Because negotiating our rights away is are hard on non starter
So any discussion invoking said potential is not a discussion worth sitting at the table for.
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 17:02
Because negotiating our rights away is are hard on non starter
So any discussion invoking said potential is not a discussion worth sitting at the table for.
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These decisions are going to be made without those people then. That is where this is heading. You don't want to play? Then you forfeit. The voting demographics are not trending in that favor.
These decisions are going to be made without those people then. That is where this is heading. You don't want to play? Then you forfeit. The voting demographics are not trending in that favor.
There it is...you are simply baiting those of us unwilling to negotiate losing any further freedoms that will only affect law abiding folks. Again, give us your ideas on how you would actually legislate evil people hell bent on violent immoral & deviant acts that don't affect the law abiding citizens.
This by definition is trolling because you won't address the problem without further restrictive gun laws you know very well will not work & then make passive aggressive posts that those of us unwilling to consider restrictive laws as being indifferent to wanting a solution. I'm all for ideas but this is purely a social / mental issue & don't want to hear anyone's plan that doesn't address the actual problem. Problem is the decision makers aren't interested in making any moves unless it includes gun laws because their motives are actually elsewhere & you don't seem to care and/or agree with these freedom sucking methods. You haven't said anything to the counter & seem to support the direction we all know is taking.
These decisions are going to be made without those people then. That is where this is heading. You don't want to play? Then you forfeit. The voting demographics are not trending in that favor.
Then so be it.
As history has shown time and time again the decision makers in such cases inevitably lead the population down a rabbit hole that they themselves cannot escape the consequences of.
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Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 17:24
There it is...you are simply baiting those of us unwilling to negotiate losing any further freedoms that will only affect law abiding folks. Again, give us your ideas on how you would actually legislate evil people hell bent on violent immoral & deviant acts that don't affect the law abiding citizens.
This by definition is trolling because you won't address the problem without further restrictive gun laws you know very well will not work & then make passive aggressive posts that those of us unwilling to consider restrictive laws as being indifferent to wanting a solution. I'm all for ideas but this is purely a social / mental issue & don't want to hear anyone's plan that doesn't address the actual problem. Problem is the decision makers aren't interested in making any moves unless it includes gun laws because their motives are actually elsewhere & you don't seem to care and/or agree with these freedom sucking methods. You haven't said anything to the counter & seem to support the direction we all know is taking.
Not the definition of trolling... I don't understand how you are trying to apply that.
And
Not baiting anyone... You can stand tight on your position. I think it is a loosing one in the long term. They will end up just taking them away when they have secured enough votes and branches.
I myself plan on keeping my firearms (Which I'm heavily invested in) and I would be willing to negotiate that in good faith. I think finding out the core issues and addressing them head on is a better long term strategy.
PatrioticDisorder
08-04-19, 17:32
Looks like Lindsey Graham tweeted about red flag laws, that is what appears to be what will come of this. His tweet reads, “Time to do more than just pray. Time to enact common sense legislation in Congress to empower states to deal with those who present a danger to themselves and others- while respecting robust due process.”
Without a doubt Republicans will get behind that legislation and we all know Trump will sign it. Democrats will say it doesn’t go far enough and we know where this story turns once they regain enough power, i’ll defer commenting on that for now because this is going to result in new red flag legislation. With everything, the devil is in the details. This appears to be the inch Republicans are willing to cede at this point in time.
Doc Safari
08-04-19, 17:34
Curious you mention the devil since he is laughing right now.
Well... I understand this is in jest. However, some thing that should be personnel and moral decisions have been takin away as a choice. That can leed to widespread violence. Just look at the prohibition era.
So please tell me that with the resounding success of Prohibition :rolleyes: that you are not suggesting some kind of "prohibition" (read: ban) on guns, right? You seem to be tight on details as to exactly what you are proposing.
Like I said earlier, I don't have the answer. I'm just interested in seeing exactly what you're proposing, as it seems that you are indeed driving at something but not saying it.
Looks like Lindsey Graham tweeted about red flag laws, that is what appears to be what will come of this. His tweet reads, “Time to do more than just pray. Time to enact common sense legislation in Congress to empower states to deal with those who present a danger to themselves and others- while respecting robust due process.”
Without a doubt Republicans will get behind that legislation and we all know Trump will sign it. Democrats will say it doesn’t go far enough and we know where this story turns once they regain enough power, i’ll defer commenting on that for now because this is going to result in new red flag legislation. With everything, the devil is in the details. This appears to be the inch Republicans are willing to cede at this point in time.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/04/mass-shootings-trump-says-perhaps-more-needed-gun-control/1916965001/
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 17:39
So please tell me that with the resounding success of Prohibition :rolleyes: that you are not suggesting some kind of "prohibition" (read: ban) on guns, right? You seem to be tight on details as to exactly what you are proposing.
Like I said earlier, I don't have the answer. I'm just interested in seeing exactly what you're proposing, as it seems that you are indeed driving at something but not saying it.
I'm saying making things illegal that should be a moral choice can cause crime to rise and subsequently violence. If Liquor was not made illegal, it would not have given rise to criminal enterprises that forced its will through violence.
Not the definition of trolling... I don't understand how you are trying to apply that.
And
Not baiting anyone... You can stand tight on your position. I think it is a loosing one in the long term. They will end up just taking them away when they have secured enough votes and branches.
I myself plan on keeping my firearms (Which I'm heavily invested in) and I would be willing to negotiate that in good faith. I think finding out the core issues and addressing them head on is a better long term strategy.
Okay, you're getting close.....what is it you propose?
And them just "taking them away"? Just like that huh? Poof. Do you have an inkling of the scope of non-compliance that would breed? You think Prohibition was bad! Remember the subject at hand is guns, not a bottle of whiskey or beer. You can throw a bottle of either at someone but that's about it. Guns, a little different story by nature of what it is.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 17:42
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/04/mass-shootings-trump-says-perhaps-more-needed-gun-control/1916965001/
As so it starts... I fear we maybe too late to come to an agreement. Should have started negotiations before all those ultra libs were voted in, they will purposely blow up any talks just to get their sound bites on MSNBC.
Belmont31R
08-04-19, 17:44
Well... I understand this is in jest. However, some thing that should be personnel and moral decisions have been takin away as a choice. That can leed to widespread violence. Just look at the prohibition era.
Not in jest. In the past these people had to go to work or do something. Now with the way family courts, welfare, and society works people can fall through the cracks. No dad around, work min wage jobs, and sit in a room playing online the rest of the time. Add in the ramping up of political discourse and we’re ripe for getting these outcast losers to pop.
Busy people don’t have time to sit in a room and become angry at society. Young dudes should be working, school, chasing girls. Not a part time min wage job and isolating themselves in a room. Add in no male figure and these people get angry and lost.
Digital_Damage
08-04-19, 17:48
Not in jest. In the past these people had to go to work or do something. Now with the way family courts, welfare, and society works people can fall through the cracks. No dad around, work min wage jobs, and sit in a room playing online the rest of the time. Add in the ramping up of political discourse and we’re ripe for getting these outcast losers to pop.
Busy people don’t have time to sit in a room and become angry at society. Young dudes should be working, school, chasing girls. Not a part time min wage job and isolating themselves in a room. Add in no male figure and these people get angry and lost.
Was referring to legalizing of hookers and the other things that should be a moral choice.
The bottom line folks is this:
I haven't killed or massacred anyone. I therefore refuse to be held accountable, or sacrifice my Constitutional rights because of the actions of lunatics, psychopaths, sociopaths, terrorists, and criminals. Period. I have always detested group punishment, and this is no exception.
And DD, if that is too unbending or inflexible then so be it. I don't care. It's where I stand on the issue. You have to know that those on the Left don't give one shit about "protecting" innocent people. This is a vehicle to remove any possible form of push-back to them implementing their agenda; I absolutely refuse to give them that smooth-sailing into a libtard Utopia.
BoringGuy45
08-04-19, 17:52
Looks like Lindsey Graham tweeted about red flag laws, that is what appears to be what will come of this. His tweet reads, “Time to do more than just pray. Time to enact common sense legislation in Congress to empower states to deal with those who present a danger to themselves and others- while respecting robust due process.”
Without a doubt Republicans will get behind that legislation and we all know Trump will sign it. Democrats will say it doesn’t go far enough and we know where this story turns once they regain enough power, i’ll defer commenting on that for now because this is going to result in new red flag legislation. With everything, the devil is in the details. This appears to be the inch Republicans are willing to cede at this point in time.
If they want to debate about it, fine. As long as the GOP says that bans are just not going to be discussed, period, end of discussion, but we'll "talk" about other things, and see what, if anything, we can come up with that won't infringe upon law abiding citizens.
I think what needs to happen is some kind of mandated reporting/investigation of people who make threats or display disturbing behavior. And I'm not talking about some soccer mom who gets freaked up because she saw her neighbor at the gun store the other day and considered that a "red flag". I'm talking about actually disturbing behavior. Too often, stuff that should get looked into just gets shoved off to the side. You can do that without having to immediately go to seizing guns.
PatrioticDisorder
08-04-19, 17:54
If they want to debate about it, fine. As long as the GOP says that bans are just not going to be discussed, period, end of discussion, but we'll "talk" about other things, and see what, if anything, we can come up with that won't infringe upon law abiding citizens.
I think what needs to happen is some kind of mandated reporting/investigation of people who make threats or display disturbing behavior. And I'm not talking about some soccer mom who gets freaked up because she saw her neighbor at the gun store the other day and considered that a "red flag". I'm talking about actually disturbing behavior. Too often, stuff that should get looked into just gets shoved off to the side. You can do that without having to immediately go to seizing guns.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-data
Highlighted kinda seems to be the take home point of the linked article.
Belmont31R
08-04-19, 17:55
As far as ‘negotiating’ let me know when liberal city and state govts start respecting FOPA rules. No other BOR has to be negotiated. People can go F themselves if the rights in our constitution can just be tit for tat traded away. We have an amendment process for a reason. Call a constitutional convention and write up a new amendment. Until then the laws stand, and I have zero reason to believe liberals will honor any ‘negotiated’ rules. NYC will throw you in jail for passing through with a banned firearm.
As far as ‘negotiating’ let me know when liberal city and state govts start respecting FOPA rules. No other BOR has to be negotiated. People can go F themselves if the rights in our constitution can just be tit for tat traded away. We have an amendment process for a reason. Call a constitutional convention and write up a new amendment. Until then the laws stand, and I have zero reason to believe liberals will honor any ‘negotiated’ rules. NYC will throw you in jail for passing through with a banned firearm.
Not to mention the laws they DO decide to enforce are very selective. Violate our nation's immigration laws? Meh, we'll look the other way. Hell, we'll even make them a pseudo-protected class and wring our hands in angst should anyone suggest those poor urchins be denied suckling off our teat and sent back.
Now fail to comply with any future gun ban? The fvcking JBT squad will be hut-hutting through your front door in a heartbeat; zero tolerance, yeah baby!
Anyone see the problem with this dichotomy? It is selectively targeting a specific group.....gee, I wonder why that would be? :rolleyes:
Look, you initially came on this thread that basically stated something has to be done & immediately started fussing about our stance because we are not willing to discuss further restriction implying the members are content with the problem due to our selfishness. You haven't addressed the actual problem or seem willing to want to discuss or offer viable solutions on anything other than losing more gun rights & our freedoms even though you know very well it does not address the underlying problem. You persistence to this approach is how I'm applying the trolling aspect. Prove me wrong & let's here what actions you would take on this grand plan of ideas / new laws to address the social & mental problem if part of the committee. Yes, I'm standing tight & not willing to negotiate anything that does nothing to affect the outcome & only hurts the law abiding populace.
I too want to understand what sort of good faith plans you would accept since you say it is coming, you state there are no intentions to give them up, but are yet willing to negotiate. What is acceptable to you & does it address the mass shooting issue AND not dilute the law abiding. I don't think you can.
Not the definition of trolling... I don't understand how you are trying to apply that.
And
Not baiting anyone... You can stand tight on your position. I think it is a loosing one in the long term. They will end up just taking them away when they have secured enough votes and branches.
I myself plan on keeping my firearms (Which I'm heavily invested in) and I would be willing to negotiate that in good faith. I think finding out the core issues and addressing them head on is a better long term strategy.
Belmont31R
08-04-19, 18:02
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-08-04/el-paso-dayton-gilroy-mass-shooters-data
Highlighted kinda seems to be the take home point of the linked article.
I don’t agree with BG checks but people dream up these ‘systems’ to keep prohibited people from buying guns or red flag laws or intervening when people are ‘crazy’. It’s government ran and like everything else there’s massive cracks and when govt fails the answer is to pile on more govt.
We’ve seen time and time again the govt being given the info be it the Parkland asshole or the Boston bombers or even 9/11. Time for people to wake up and realize big govt doesn’t work and adding more layers won’t work. Lots of entities don’t update NICS and that’s just basic reporting of convictions or involuntary mental health holds.
Doc Safari
08-04-19, 18:04
Pass all the laws you want. Millions will ignore them. A piece of paper does not enforce what's written on it.
Pass all the laws you want. Millions will ignore them. A piece of paper does not enforce what's written on it.
Basically this. "They" have no idea of the problems something like that could CREATE. Yes, CREATE, i.e. problems that don't exist now but would because of such chicanery. Several million new, CREATED, previously law-abiding citizens are now felons. Riiiight, let me know how that works out.
Belmont31R
08-04-19, 18:12
Pass all the laws you want. Millions will ignore them. A piece of paper does not enforce what's written on it.
Yup. Fed gov cannot enforce anything besides catching people in 1’s and 2’s. Good luck to any small town PD or rural sheriff who decides to do the Fed’s bidding. These locals have enough to do just trying to catch meth billies let alone stacking up and taking guns away
I'm not specifically talking about school shootings. Also just looking at your links, the one that dates back to 1800s. They changed the charts from 10 year increments to 3 and now they have a separate 2019 chart.
I'm not suggesting crime is new. I'm not suggesting that the more people the more crime is not an element. I'm just saying we seem to be having a lot more ' like minded crazy person " type events. I agree it's not a gun issue but to me it seems like there is another element superimposed on this normally occurring crime type if you will.
These crimes seem oddly associated with a rewardless motive.
If you look, after many mass murder events there is a clustering effect.
I just watched Armageddon for about the 300th time - spoiler alert Bruce Willis still willingly sacrifices himself for the greater good.
Knowing that people do this (sacrfice themselves for the greater good) in various circumstances everyday, why is it inconceivable to believe that media attention to these events are a primary catalyst to act for like minded people?
In many cases these are suicides, done in the messiest way possible.
Suicides per 100,000 population have been steadily rising since 2001:
58354
Perhaps due to the reasons Firefly put forth. Clearly youth today are more disaffected, and also more detached from 'real' society in general, instead living vicariously via social media.
Is it any wonder that 1) mass murder suicides are more prevalent and 2) media publicity drives copy cats?
sundance435
08-04-19, 18:32
Not the definition of trolling... I don't understand how you are trying to apply that.
And
Not baiting anyone... You can stand tight on your position. I think it is a loosing one in the long term. They will end up just taking them away when they have secured enough votes and branches.
I myself plan on keeping my firearms (Which I'm heavily invested in) and I would be willing to negotiate that in good faith. I think finding out the core issues and addressing them head on is a better long term strategy.
That's all so incongruous that I'm having a hard time imagining how you make that work mentally.
I'm saying making things illegal that should be a moral choice can cause crime to rise and subsequently violence. If Liquor was not made illegal, it would not have given rise to criminal enterprises that forced its will through violence.
Right, because this country has a long track record of successful prohibitions. Why would firearms be any different? This isn't some country where there wasn't a large firearms culture when they set about banning guns.
22 pages in and y’all are still fighting the wrong fight- focusing on the means rather than the crime. Forget the guns- we need to make MURDER illegal.
Doc Safari
08-04-19, 18:59
Basically this. "They" have no idea of the problems something like that could CREATE. Yes, CREATE, i.e. problems that don't exist now but would because of such chicanery. Several million new, CREATED, previously law-abiding citizens are now felons. Riiiight, let me know how that works out.
I'm in my fifties with health issues. If my choice is dying for freedom while fighting on my feet or while lying on my back in a hospital bed guess which one is a more meaningful death.
Yo: Those of you who must enforce a gun ban....
Just decide how many of your jack booted thugs you consider expendable when you try to take the guns of the American gun owner. We fight for a way of life. You fight for a paycheck. Guess which one of us has more motivation to succeed.
vicious_cb
08-04-19, 19:10
Not the definition of trolling... I don't understand how you are trying to apply that.
And
Not baiting anyone... You can stand tight on your position. I think it is a loosing one in the long term. They will end up just taking them away when they have secured enough votes and branches.
I myself plan on keeping my firearms (Which I'm heavily invested in) and I would be willing to negotiate that in good faith. I think finding out the core issues and addressing them head on is a better long term strategy.
How very naive. You actually think you can reason with these people.
Their ultimate goal has and always will be the complete disarmament of the civilian populace.
They will use these events to chip away at 2A anyway they can. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.
Belmont31R
08-04-19, 19:22
Socialism doesn’t work with an armed populace. If you think the left isn’t trying to implement that here you haven’t been paying attention. Every repressive govt requires an unarmed populace. Just watch the Dem debates and it’s obvious these people give zero ****s about laws, the constitution and rights. It’s pedal to the metal far leftism and gun ownership at this point is the primary hinderance to that effort.
Straight Shooter
08-04-19, 20:18
Having not read the majority of posts here, Ill give my two pennies worth & leave it at that:
Many people in this country want and/or believe in a Godless society..and a "separation of church & state."
Well, you got it.
Having not read the majority of posts here, Ill give my two pennies worth & leave it at that:
Many people in this country want and/or believe in a Godless society..and a "separation of church & state."
Well, you got it.
Makes ya scratch your head as our direction sorta parallels...
~~~~~~~~~~~
For those interested in stats:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/neil-degarasse-tyson-slammed-for-tweet-about-mass-shooting-data
I wonder what will happen after we reach a point wherein politicians having had their way eventually force the populace to respond and decide to start making politicians be afraid again.
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To date people have been so dug in on the positions that no one wants to talk about the actual cause.
I can agree with that sentiment.
The fact is that we live in a country that came to be in a different time frame than the European Countries, and in a different manner. As a result of that the possession and use of firearms WAS somewhat ingrained in our collective DNA. At the time the Constitution and the Bill of Rights sprang to life, firearms were generally essential for safety and survival in many areas of our growing country. Add to that the healthy concern that the Founding Fathers had toward the eventual wanderings away from their vision of the Federal Government, and you have the 2nd Amendment, heck the entire Bill of Rights. That the body of those who ratified the Constitution, in essence, required a Bill of Rights as a point of ratification was pure serendipity, IMO.
Today, we still have the BoR, but the need to have firearms for safety and survival is no longer so deeply entrenched in our DNA. I think it is also safe to say that the majority of our fellow Americans no longer believe that the population possessing firearms is all that stands between us and a totalitarian government. I am not saying they are right, I am quoting the truth of the matter.
I still believe that the majority of Americans support the right to bear are for protection and sporting purposes (DO NOT NEED COMMENTS ON SPORTING CLAUSE) but a lesser number, maybe not even a majority, believe it is necessary for use to be able to possess military style weapons/assault weapons to defend ourselves from the government.
The fact is that that collective firearms related DNA that I spoke of earlier, is shrinking, generation, by generation. I feel we are on a precipice. Yet, the collective we still stick to our dogma of no compromise, etc. To me, this only hastens, what I fear is an inevitable end.
So, as a person who primarily wants firearms to play golf with a gun, and for defensive purposes, my goal is to slow the erosion as much as possible.
Things that are on our no go list that, in my view, do not help our cause:
1) Fighting to keep undocumented transfer intact. Currently, the 4473's are not computerized per federal code, if that should change, a majority of past 4473's are stored in conex boxes and have yet to be micro-fiched. Many of them are going to be unreadable, and I'm sure mysterious explosions would occur if the feds started to computerize those records.
That aside, would it be that much of a pain in the ass, or an affront to freedom, to go to an FFL to do a private transfer? I'm pretty sure enterprising FFL's would make the service available at gun shows and in their shops for walk in customers. A set fee of, say, $15.00, would keep it affordable.
2) No waiting period. I'm pretty sure some firearms-related suicides and homicides would be/have been prevented by mandatory waiting periods, although I'm not sure how you could prove that reliably. I'm of the mind that Sunday sales of alcohol should be banned, in fact because of my religious beliefs, I generally support blue laws - I wouldn't be typing this if I thought it was work :) - my feeling is if you can't get you pooh enough together to understand you need booze for the weekend, or a gun to hunt, a couple of days in advance, you really need to do (N)either.
Aside from that, the prevalence of internet transfers to FFL's kind of underscores the fact that many of us are capable of waiting a couple of days to hold our recently purchased firearm in our hands. In the rare occasions where someone has a viable threat and no means of SD, the rules could circumvent the waiting period with a police.
3) Resistance to red flag acts or laws. Properly crafted, these laws do not remove due process, and can serve to get firearms out of the hands of the mentally incompetent. Yet the collective we remain ardently opposed.
The thing to do is work to ensure they are grounded in due process rather than pissing in the wind. Most Americans, including many gun owners, are not opposed to these measures, you we seem to be in a contest with each other to see which one of us can be the most stiff-necked about the 2nd Amendment. Do you think that the 2nd Amendment was written to ensure that the village idiot or other incompetent person was able to bear arms? I don't.
Instead of bellowing no compromise at the top of our lungs, we need our Congress Critters to begin to approach the table on these issues, one at a time, slowing the process as much as possible and fending off bans on assault weapons, reduced magazine capacity limits, and bans on semi-auto rifles. Because I am sorry to say, I fear that is the reality if, as a whole, we continue our intransigence on these issues.
I am well aware this is not a popular view and will not be well-received, unfortunately I believe it is the reality we face.
That aside, would it be that much of a pain in the ass, or an affront to freedom, to go to an FFL to do a private transfer? I'm pretty sure enterprising FFL's would make the service available at gun shows and in their shops for walk in customers. A set fee of, say, $15.00, would keep it affordable.
Actually yes.
My father gifted me quite a few handguns and longguns when I was 12 years old. If an official transfer was required, it would have been illegal.
Also when someone buys a firearm as a gift for a friend or relative who they know is "not prohibited", they want to give the gift and not an appointment for a background check.
There was a time when a man went off to war and said to his 12 year old son, "This belonged to my father, your grandfather and he used it to keep his family safe...it's YOURS now." That kind of thing used to be the very fabric of our culture and values, it told a boy of 12 he needed to start thinking like a man and accept responsibility while his father was gone. It was potentially a "last meaningful gesture" if the father never came home and goes to the core of that man's main values.
That such a thing would most likely be technically a crime today is a perversion of what this country stands for. Independence means I have everything I need to take care of myself and my family. I have all of the tools and all of the values. If you are truly independent you can survive even gender neutral bathrooms.
But Independence is becoming a little known concept and almost an esoteric skill. And getting government approval to have certain birthrights handed down is pretty self defeating when it comes to learning Independence.
If low income fathers on the wrong side of their tracks were teaching their sons about independence and the importance of being an individual person beholden to damn few, I'd rest easy with the transfer of firearms and other weapons from father to son in those instances.
The problem again of course is such ideas and mindsets are rarely encountered today.
If I had children, they would have carried wooden swords from the time they could hold them correctly, then at the age of 13 they would have been given steel blades in the tradition of the samurai...and a suitable handgun (probably a .357) and a practical rifle (probably an AR).
NDT presents a good point. Of course he’s getting fried for it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190805/dbbb6c04fd6bbc96f9f3f187f3a59adb.jpg
That aside, would it be that much of a pain in the ass, or an affront to freedom, to go to an FFL to do a private transfer? I'm pretty sure enterprising FFL's would make the service available at gun shows and in their shops for walk in customers. A set fee of, say, $15.00, would keep it affordable.
That depends on your means and geography. In Illinois We already have to have a FOID to posses a firearm or ammo. Private transfers have to verify the buyers FOID with the state police and keep a record of the transfer for 3 years. Does that stop gun violence in the state? Nope.
Our FFLs now have to get licensed by the state. The cost of that license as well the cost of requirements (maintaining video of every transfer) is forcing most of the mom-n-pop and pawn shop FFLs out of business. If you are in a rural part of the state driving an hour wash way for that transfer is a problem. Same goes for a CCW holder in urban Chicago. 45 min drive to the nearest FFL, IF you have a car. Firearms aren’t allowed on mass transit, so without a car you’re SOL.
As for paying a $15 to exercise a right? Are we cool with everyone paying a $15 fee to vote, each time you vote?
By nature I’m a compromiser, but for those that don’t like guns it’s never enough. NEVER.
sundance435
08-05-19, 11:32
As some have alluded to on here, freedom can be scary sometimes and by no means equals “safety”. Modern life makes it easier to forget, especially as we give up more and more individual responsibility for the “collective”.
Vigilance is the price of liberty.
SomeOtherGuy
08-05-19, 11:36
Same goes for a CCW holder in urban Chicago. 45 min drive to the nearest FFL, IF you have a car. Firearms aren’t allowed on mass transit, so without a car you’re SOL.
Oh c'mon, they could walk. Nothing iffy about walking 20 miles through the outer edges of City of Chicago.
Ha. Haha. HAHAHHAAHAHAHAAH.....
As for paying a $15 to exercise a right? Are we cool with everyone paying a $15 fee to vote, each time you vote?
What if we made it $1000 to vote, must be from funds that the person earned themselves (no loan, donation, or inheritance).
You can interpret this as reductio ad absurdum, or you can think "hmmm, yeah, I might like how that would change voting!"
It would even be fairer than today, where ad spending campaigns are said to determine elections, and the entry price for meaningful advertising is far more than $1k.
for those that don’t like guns it’s never enough. NEVER.
Because they are totalitarians and useful idiots, and the former just want absolute control over their slaves.
NDT presents a good point. Of course he’s getting fried for it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190805/dbbb6c04fd6bbc96f9f3f187f3a59adb.jpg
I hate the guys politics. But he got this one right.
I guess he already apologized for it which is BS
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FromMyColdDeadHand
08-05-19, 11:42
I can agree with that sentiment.
The fact is that we live in a ...
...
I am well aware this is not a popular view and will not be well-received, unfortunately I believe it is the reality we face.
I understand what you are saying and it is a rational response. The problem is that we aren't dealing with rational or informed people on the other side. They want all the guns gone.
They want all the guns gone.
So you do the above items- and then the next day they come back and want more. So you have given up something and gotten?????? You think that they will won't consider us to be racist, nazi, list-the-ism anymore.
Tie them to something that protects law abiding gun owners and our firearms. Otherwise, you have just given them Czechoslovakia and gotten peace for some time.
Why you need red flag laws mystifies me. Someone is a danger or not. Guns have little to do with it. Add in crazy and clearly unconstitutional laws and all I see out of that is some bad outcomes at front doors and probably some smack down at SCOTUS if they are doing their job even a little bit.
NDT presents a good point. Of course he’s getting fried for it.
NDT has actually posted semi-slanted anti statistics in the past. My guess is he was actually trying to steer the conversation towards banning handguns as the "numbers" show. Of course no good deed goes unpunished and his own side eviscerated him...
Oh well.
Dennis.
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NDT has actually posted semi-slanted anti statistics in the past. My guess is he was actually trying to steer the conversation towards banning handguns as the "numbers" show. Of course no good deed goes unpunished and his own side eviscerated him...
Oh well.
Dennis.
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I’ve been loling at the prolific implosion of Crenshaw too so I guess it evens out
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vicious_cb
08-05-19, 12:57
3) Resistance to red flag acts or laws. Properly crafted, these laws do not remove due process, and can serve to get firearms out of the hands of the mentally incompetent. Yet the collective we remain ardently opposed.
The thing to do is work to ensure they are grounded in due process rather than pissing in the wind. Most Americans, including many gun owners, are not opposed to these measures, you we seem to be in a contest with each other to see which one of us can be the most stiff-necked about the 2nd Amendment. Do you think that the 2nd Amendment was written to ensure that the village idiot or other incompetent person was able to bear arms? I don't.
Instead of bellowing no compromise at the top of our lungs, we need our Congress Critters to begin to approach the table on these issues, one at a time, slowing the process as much as possible and fending off bans on assault weapons, reduced magazine capacity limits, and bans on semi-auto rifles. Because I am sorry to say, I fear that is the reality if, as a whole, we continue our intransigence on these issues.
I am well aware this is not a popular view and will not be well-received, unfortunately I believe it is the reality we face.
No, just no. Its just going be like another #metoo movement just with gun owners this time. At first they catch the 1 or 2 people who are actually dangerous then will just become Jim reporting John because he doesnt like his political beliefs. How many innocent gun owners are going to get jacked by a SWAT team because some liberal called in some fake "red flags".
DO YOU REALIZE HOW INSANE LEFTISTS ARE THESE DAYS? THEY ACTUALLY THINK WORDS ARE VIOLENCE.
I wonder what will happen after we reach a point wherein politicians having had their way eventually force the populace to respond and decide to start making politicians be afraid again.
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What will happen is that this country will be a better place than it is now.
However I'm not sure the populace at large is up to it, and the individuals who are up to it are so few in number that to act without sufficient support would be pointlessly suicidal and would end up damaging the cause more than furthering it.
So the end result is that nobody does anything.
How very naive. You actually think you can reason with these people.
Their ultimate goal has and always will be the complete disarmament of the civilian populace.
They will use these events to chip away at 2A anyway they can. Give them an inch and they will take a mile.
This x1,000 ^^.
The end goal is a repressive socialist government ruling over a disarmed people who gave up their freedom for a little bit of false security. History is ripe with examples of those in power using the exact same play book, and it never ends well. This was well understood by the founding fathers and is exactly why they emphasized that it is a RIGHT to keep and bear arms (not some privilege that can be negotiated), and that this right is necessary to the security of a free state and "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".
Anyone who can't see what the left is trying to do has blinders on.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-05-19, 13:59
I’ve been loling at the prolific implosion of Crenshaw too so I guess it evens out
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I thought Crenshaw was the chosen one. Such a let down.
I can agree with that sentiment.
The fact is that we live in a country that came to be in a different time frame than the European Countries, and in a different manner. As a result of that the possession and use of firearms WAS somewhat ingrained in our collective DNA. At the time the Constitution and the Bill of Rights sprang to life, firearms were generally essential for safety and survival in many areas of our growing country. Add to that the healthy concern that the Founding Fathers had toward the eventual wanderings away from their vision of the Federal Government, and you have the 2nd Amendment, heck the entire Bill of Rights. That the body of those who ratified the Constitution, in essence, required a Bill of Rights as a point of ratification was pure serendipity, IMO.
Today, we still have the BoR, but the need to have firearms for safety and survival is no longer so deeply entrenched in our DNA. I think it is also safe to say that the majority of our fellow Americans no longer believe that the population possessing firearms is all that stands between us and a totalitarian government. I am not saying they are right, I am quoting the truth of the matter.
I still believe that the majority of Americans support the right to bear are for protection and sporting purposes (DO NOT NEED COMMENTS ON SPORTING CLAUSE) but a lesser number, maybe not even a majority, believe it is necessary for use to be able to possess military style weapons/assault weapons to defend ourselves from the government.
The fact is that that collective firearms related DNA that I spoke of earlier, is shrinking, generation, by generation. I feel we are on a precipice. Yet, the collective we still stick to our dogma of no compromise, etc. To me, this only hastens, what I fear is an inevitable end.
So, as a person who primarily wants firearms to play golf with a gun, and for defensive purposes, my goal is to slow the erosion as much as possible.
Things that are on our no go list that, in my view, do not help our cause:
1) Fighting to keep undocumented transfer intact. Currently, the 4473's are not computerized per federal code, if that should change, a majority of past 4473's are stored in conex boxes and have yet to be micro-fiched. Many of them are going to be unreadable, and I'm sure mysterious explosions would occur if the feds started to computerize those records.
That aside, would it be that much of a pain in the ass, or an affront to freedom, to go to an FFL to do a private transfer? I'm pretty sure enterprising FFL's would make the service available at gun shows and in their shops for walk in customers. A set fee of, say, $15.00, would keep it affordable.
2) No waiting period. I'm pretty sure some firearms-related suicides and homicides would be/have been prevented by mandatory waiting periods, although I'm not sure how you could prove that reliably. I'm of the mind that Sunday sales of alcohol should be banned, in fact because of my religious beliefs, I generally support blue laws - I wouldn't be typing this if I thought it was work :) - my feeling is if you can't get you pooh enough together to understand you need booze for the weekend, or a gun to hunt, a couple of days in advance, you really need to do either.
Aside from that, the prevalence of internet transfers to FFL's kind of underscores the fact that many of us are capable of waiting a couple of days to hold our recently purchased firearm in our hands. In the rare occasions where someone has a viable threat and no means of SD, the rules could circumvent the waiting period with a police.
3) Resistance to red flag acts or laws. Properly crafted, these laws do not remove due process, and can serve to get firearms out of the hands of the mentally incompetent. Yet the collective we remain ardently opposed.
The thing to do is work to ensure they are grounded in due process rather than pissing in the wind. Most Americans, including many gun owners, are not opposed to these measures, you we seem to be in a contest with each other to see which one of us can be the most stiff-necked about the 2nd Amendment. Do you think that the 2nd Amendment was written to ensure that the village idiot or other incompetent person was able to bear arms? I don't.
Instead of bellowing no compromise at the top of our lungs, we need our Congress Critters to begin to approach the table on these issues, one at a time, slowing the process as much as possible and fending off bans on assault weapons, reduced magazine capacity limits, and bans on semi-auto rifles. Because I am sorry to say, I fear that is the reality if, as a whole, we continue our intransigence on these issues.
I am well aware this is not a popular view and will not be well-received, unfortunately I believe it is the reality we face.
A reality based on fallacy.
Love thy neighbor, turn him in.
It’s called patriotism
These decisions are going to be made without those people then. That is where this is heading. You don't want to play? Then you forfeit. The voting demographics are not trending in that favor.
LOL, we forfeit nothing we refuse to give up. We're already past laws. The left has spent the better part of a quarter century ignoring laws and undermining not only the rule of law, but the agents who enforce it. So we're adopting that strategy now. We're not complying and we're not going to accept their boots on our necks. "Compromise" all you want, we'll just walk away from the table and do whatever the hell we please anyway.
1) Fighting to keep undocumented transfer intact. Currently, the 4473's are not computerized per federal code, if that should change, a majority of past 4473's are stored in conex boxes and have yet to be micro-fiched. Many of them are going to be unreadable, and I'm sure mysterious explosions would occur if the feds started to computerize those records.
That aside, would it be that much of a pain in the ass, or an affront to freedom, to go to an FFL to do a private transfer? I'm pretty sure enterprising FFL's would make the service available at gun shows and in their shops for walk in customers. A set fee of, say, $15.00, would keep it affordable.
The federal government does not have the power to COMPEL citizens to purchase for fee services to exercise a Constitutional Right. I will not be forced to let the government approve the sale of my private property at my own time and expense. If they want to open up NICS to ANYONE selling a firearm with no records retained, then I will use their service. Otherwise, it's a flat non-starter whether they pass a law or not!
2) No waiting period. I'm pretty sure some firearms-related suicides and homicides would be/have been prevented by mandatory waiting periods, although I'm not sure how you could prove that reliably. I'm of the mind that Sunday sales of alcohol should be banned, in fact because of my religious beliefs, I generally support blue laws - I wouldn't be typing this if I thought it was work :) - my feeling is if you can't get you pooh enough together to understand you need booze for the weekend, or a gun to hunt, a couple of days in advance, you really need to do either.
Aside from that, the prevalence of internet transfers to FFL's kind of underscores the fact that many of us are capable of waiting a couple of days to hold our recently purchased firearm in our hands. In the rare occasions where someone has a viable threat and no means of SD, the rules could circumvent the waiting period with a police.
It is virtually guaranteed that this will cost innocent lives, even if it saves some. Police in every jurisdiction will not make exceptions, because agencies all over restrictive states don't even believe in the 2nd Amendment. Many of them actively violate FOPA law. So again, this is a non-starter. The government is not in the business of picking winners and losers in domestic disputes. Besides, it is a legal premise that a right delayed is a right denied.
3) Resistance to red flag acts or laws. Properly crafted, these laws do not remove due process, and can serve to get firearms out of the hands of the mentally incompetent. Yet the collective we remain ardently opposed.
I have yet to see a single one of these Red Flag laws written to adequately protect Due Process. None of them require the implementing authority to assume 100% of the financial costs. In every case, they rely on prosecutorial offices to provide redress against false claims, but they don't COMPEL those offices to prosecute offenders. That again sets up selective enforcement which in anti-gun jurisdictions will ensure civil and constitutional rights violations with no effective redress. In the worst jurisdictions, this will become legalized Swatting. Not cool.
The thing to do is work to ensure they are grounded in due process rather than pissing in the wind. Most Americans, including many gun owners, are not opposed to these measures, you we seem to be in a contest with each other to see which one of us can be the most stiff-necked about the 2nd Amendment. Do you think that the 2nd Amendment was written to ensure that the village idiot or other incompetent person was able to bear arms? I don't.
Instead of bellowing no compromise at the top of our lungs, we need our Congress Critters to begin to approach the table on these issues, one at a time, slowing the process as much as possible and fending off bans on assault weapons, reduced magazine capacity limits, and bans on semi-auto rifles. Because I am sorry to say, I fear that is the reality if, as a whole, we continue our intransigence on these issues.
I am well aware this is not a popular view and will not be well-received, unfortunately I believe it is the reality we face.
Compromise? I do not think that word means what you think it means. The anti-gunners NEVER offer concessions to us. They vilify us as racist, sexist, bigoted, xenophobic hate mongers till the cows come home, but they never treat us as valid Americans with rights, only responsibilities. Sorry, you don't get to come to the table with empty pockets and expect to walk away with the pot. IDGAF what they want or think. They can do whatever they want except take what is mine. That's the red line for more and more Americans.
It isn't the form of compromise where there is give and take, but the form analogous to, "the aircraft controls were compromised leading to the crash."
As for paying a $15 to exercise a right? Are we cool with everyone paying a $15 fee to vote, each time you vote?
Please understand that I had a lot of things I wanted to point out and suggest, and was somewhat imprecise in doing so.
Regarding the $15.00, unless you create another governmental entity to do individual to individual transfers, there needs to be some juice in it for the FFL's. Buying a firearm from an FFL would be the same as it is now, and most of us are already paying transfer fees on internet purchases, so how is this much different?
How about we re-frame it, instead of thinking of it as costing you $15.00 to purchase the firearm, it cost the guy selling the firearm $15.00 to not bear that firearm any longer.
By nature I’m a compromiser, but for those that don’t like guns it’s never enough. NEVER.
As I posted earlier, our firearms DNA is shrinking generation by generation, as far as I'm concerned we are working to stave off the inevitable. Amputating fingers joint by joint to save the hand, eventually amputation the hand to save the arm, and the arm to save the body.
Why you need red flag laws mystifies me. Someone is a danger or not. Guns have little to do with it.
Add in crazy and clearly unconstitutional laws and all I see out of that is some bad outcomes at front doors and probably some smack down at SCOTUS if they are doing their job even a little bit.
I'm sorry that James Madison didn't have the foresight to write "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed except if someone is mentally defective, batshit crazy, or mentally unstable and a danger to themselves or others."
Maybe James was also the guy that originally wrote "Common sense, so rare it should be a super power."
As I posted earlier, our firearms DNA is shrinking generation by generation, as far as I'm concerned we are working to stave off the inevitable. Amputating fingers joint by joint to save the hand, eventually amputation the hand to save the arm, and the arm to save the body.
And your ok with this?
Like, if the end result is the same it’s better to just let the flame slowly burn out and wisp away to nothing?
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I'm sorry that James Madison didn't have the foresight to write "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed except if someone is mentally defective, batshit crazy, or mentally unstable and a danger to themselves or others."
Maybe James was also the guy that originally wrote "Common sense, so rare it should be a super power."
If you are too dangerous to have a gun, you shouldnt have a knife, flintlock, gunpowder, gasoline, mortor vehicle, or acess to the general public.
Gun control doesnt work. See paris, see paris again, see 9/11, see OK city bombing, see bath school massecre, see london, japans mass stabbings, Nazi gas chambers, etc....
Also, America was founded on freedom, not safety.
As I posted earlier, our firearms DNA is shrinking generation by generation, as far as I'm concerned we are working to stave off the inevitable. Amputating fingers joint by joint to save the hand, eventually amputation the hand to save the arm, and the arm to save the body.
I totally get where your coming from here. We are working to delay what seems inevitable.
And your ok with this?
Like, if the end result is the same it’s better to just let the flame slowly burn out and wisp away to nothing?
I'm not 'okay with it' I just am past the stage of denial in the grief process. Now I want to focus on minimizing the restrictions. I feel the best we can hope for are red flag laws.
I don't know if you caught my comments about our shrinking firearms DNA, but that is our reality.
If you are too dangerous to have a gun, you shouldnt have a knife, flintlock, gunpowder, gasoline, mortor vehicle, or acess to the general public.
Gun control doesnt work. See paris, see paris again, see 9/11, see OK city bombing, see bath school massecre, see london, japans mass stabbings, Nazi gas chambers, etc....
Also, America was founded on freedom, not safety.
Where did I say gun control worked? There are plenty of examples of it's failure to stem crime, or protect the public.
I simply believe that it is incrementally inevitable.
As I told my sister, who is of the AR's are evil persuasion, if you could guarantee that you got all the guns, I'd turn mine in, but you can't, that genie is out of the bottle, there are simply too many, and the ability to manufacture them is no longer an exotic skill. Someone with evil intent will always be able to get one.
And, you don't need to lecture me on America being founded on freedom, not safety. Quite frankly, I take it as an intimation that I'm not a true American, and I find it insulting.
if you're afraid of firearms DNA shrinking then it means you haven't been a proper mentor. I say that in general. The constant vibe I get from "gun people) is thst they have had their fun and never showed a younger person how rewardimg of a discipline it can be
if you're afraid of firearms DNA shrinking then it means you haven't been a proper mentor. I say that in general. The constant vibe I get from "gun people) is thst they have had their fun and never showed a younger person how rewardimg of a discipline it can be
Fly - Roughly 300 cops a year for over thirty years, my share of that would have been 100 a year not counting the advanced course I presented; four kids and five grand kids that I've taken shooting. I've hauled kids to Appleseeds, and I've built guns for all of them except the three youngest grand kids. My 'spawn' teach hunter safety classes, raise and train GSR's, guide hunts, and take game with shotgun, rifle and bow. My tow sones (oldest kids) carry - one of them more than I do.
Quite frankly, I get tired of being lectured about how fvcked up America is and being told the principles by which I should live by folks who have contributed little, if any to the furtherance of those principles and our security other than running their yaps on the internet.
I read posts on here by 'ardent' Americans that we are being overtaken by the immigrants, that soon the white Americans will be a minority and things are going to hell because of it. Funny, it turns out that many of those ardent Americans who are bellowing the most haven't procreated any of their own Americans to stem the tide. How many times have you read something like this If I had children?
As the Spartans said 'IF.' I'm more of a 'show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.' I'm awaiting my first great grandchild, I'm sure that my grandson will make sure some of the gun DNA I helped instill in him ends up in his child.
You said: The constant vibe I get from "gun people" is that they have had their fun and never showed a younger person how rewarding of a discipline it can be. I agree, although I'd probably couch it in different words.
You kind of touched a hot button.
I'd like to see some verification on this..
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBJVE7NXsAAQ77g?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBJVE7NXsAAQ77g?format=jpg&name=900x900What that's from?
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