Would someone be so kind to share some penetration, expansion, and retained weight figures in regards to the classic 125 Gr. SJHP .357 Magnum loads? For loads so “legendary” I sure can’t seem to find much data on them other than this: http://firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm That data is from a 3". How does a 4-6" fare?
EDIT: I guess I do know of a test from a 6", but that was using Perma-Gel. Does that stuff yeild results similar to properly calibrated ballistics gel?
I tested 4 loads in that weight range in Spring 2001 for the IWBA. I used my water-testing tank, and the results were converted to bare gelatin equivilency. The firearm used was a S&W Model 686 with a 4 inch barrel.
The weight retention was good on some, not so good on others. The ending weight was from about 70 grains up to 125 grains. The ones that penetrated the deepest retained the most weight, the only exception being the overexpanding Speer Gold Dot listed in the next paragraph.
The famed Remington SJHP only penetrated eqivilent to about 9-10 inches (.53-.56" exp.), the Remington Golden Saber penetrated about 11-12 inches (.61-.65" exp.), the Hornady XTP penetrated about 11-13 inches (.55-.62" exp.), and the Speer Gold Dot penetrated about 10-14 inches (.56-.66" exp.), of which one round overexpanded to .66" and only went 10 inches.
May I ask what was the conversion factor you used to convert water to gel penetration? I remember normally a factor of 2.0 is used, but in some cases it is different?
I gathered all the data from my water testing (velocity, expansion, recovered weight and expanded diameter). My testing is based on the penetration model in Duncan MacPherson’s book: ‘Bullet Penetration’, and his book has graphs to estimate gelatin penetration for yourself if you want to input your own data. However, if one wants to be more accurate in their estimate (I know, that sounds a bit strange… an ‘accurate estimate’), Duncan needs to actually input the data into his penetration model instead of one relying on a relatively less accurate (due to size only) graph in his book. Duncan then generated the more accurate penetration figures for me.
Long story short… the data I gathered was input by Duncan MacPherson into his penetration model and then the results were passed back to me.
The entire water-testing metod I used is explained in my 1st IWBA article (I had 3 published, the one on .357 Magnum was the 3rd). It is also explained, but not quite as well, at FirearmsTactical.com.
Sometimes I wonder if some of the folk lore about the .357’s legendary “stopping power”, was due to who carried them, and their ability to shoot well. In the departments where they were optional, it was the shooters that were able to qualify with, and carry them.
On one of the department’s I was on, I worked with one old timer who was still carrying 158 grain round nose, (against policy), long after we had switched to hollow points. He’d been in 4 shootings in his 20+ years, all one shot DRT’s, and you couldn’t convince him the 158 RN’s weren’t better. After seeing him shoot little tiny groups, (he had been an accomplished PPC competitor), it was easy to see why his shootings turned out the way they did.
Heck, given that the early hollow points didn’t penetrate worth a shit, maybe he did have a point.
I worked with one old timer who was still carrying 158 grain round nose, (against policy), long after we had switched to hollow points. He’d been in 4 shootings in his 20+ years, all one shot DRT’s, and you couldn’t convince him the 158 RN’s weren’t better
I’ve recently come to a similar conclusion. I carry 158gr SWC in my Mod 60. I want consistant penetration.
The 158gr RNL was the load police departments used for 50 years. The only complaint I heard was about auto sheet metal penetration.
You have to remember that the 125 SJHP’s legendary reputation stems from its high velocity and explosive fragmentation from 4+" barrels. Deep penetration wasn’t the name of the game in those days and only became popular in recent years. Years ago “Light and Fast” was the big thing and that’s how sppedsters like Federal’s 9mm 115gr +P+ 9BPLE and Corbon’s 135gr .40s&w both at 1,300fps+ earned their reputation as fight stoppers.
I carry heavier ammo now, however I still have some of the speedy lightweight stuff stashed away and would totally confident in its ability to get the job done if called into action.
I used to use the Federal 125 grain JHP in my .357 Magnums, and the CCI Speer 200 grain JHP in my .45 ACP’s for years!!! Those loads ‘can’ work a lot of the time. However, after joining the IWBA and learning more, I decided to go with loads that I could be confident in 100% of the time, instead of most of the time. Both of those loads fragment quite a bit, and both are relatively shallow penetrators by modern LE standards. All it takes is just one less than ideal shot angle, unexpected barrier, etc. and you will wish you had been using a better load (if you are alive still). If I were to carry a .357 Magnum or .45 ACP now they would be loaded with Winchester Supreme 180 grain PG and Winchester Ranger 230 grain JHP.
The hyper velocity, lightweight, low penetrating ammo, worked great when deeper penetration wasn’t necessary in that shooting. Knowing ahead of time how big your opponent is, and at what angle you’ll have to shoot him, is the problem…
… and I know a copper who bounced two 158gr RNL bullets off a bad guy’s face without effect. The history of the 158gr and 200gr “Police” loads is very poor. This was one of the worst defensive loads ever. I wouldn’t hunt rabbits with RNL, let alone carry it for defensive use by choice.
I also note that the better new school .38 loads penetrate just fine while still expending.
That being said, I’d carry something like the Buffalo Bore WCs if a good JHP wasn’t currently available.
and I know a copper who bounced two 158gr RNL bullets off a bad guy’s face without effect
With glancing head shots, that behavior has been observed for round nose bullets in all calibers, including 45ACP. That’s why some like using bullets with a sharp edge, such as a wadcutter, that might have a better chance of digging in enough to achieve penetration.
The history of the 158gr and 200gr “Police” loads is very poor. This was one of the worst defensive loads ever. I wouldn’t hunt rabbits with RNL, let alone carry it for defensive use by choice.
That wouldn’t be my rabbit hunting choice either and a 45ACP FMJ would be a poor choice too. However, I personally, would have no concerns using them for defense against human attackers.
Indeed. It even happens with today’s best hollow point ammunition. I’m aware of a couple shootings where the bullet stayed under the skin, and followed the line of the skull around without penetrating the bone.
Indeed this behavior is common in many shootings that I have seen, which is why I wouldn’t by choice use RNL or RNFMJ for any use besides paper-punching.
Given that modern JHPs can also skid off of skulls, and ribs, it is also less common for this to happen due to the cookie cutter effect of the meplat on a good JHP.
I have hunted small game most of my life, with whatever gun I had at hand, often just for the challenge. Rabbit hunting with a .32 PPK/J frame .38/Beretta .22/Model 10 S&W/etc. is work, and right good fun to boot.
I have personally seen the same behavior when hunting that Jim Cirillo describes on pages 31 and 32 in ‘Guns, Bullets and Gunfights’, and more than once.
I greatly prefer launching wadcutters from pistols for the same reasons Jim speaks of, but actually finding such ammo is rather hard to do, thus I prefer aggressive JHPs like the Ranger-T (especially in 9mm) when given the choice.
When choosing a load for SD in .357 Magnum or .38 Special (+P or non-+P), I like to know the particular revolver it will be loaded into before choosing. The barrel length (and in some cases even the make/model/handgrip) steer me to different choices for their ammo.
